Reflections on Technology and Student Engagement (Ep. 468)

Today, Tim is joined by  Jen Leban for a discussion centered around technology, focus, and the changing dynamics of student engagement. Tim begins with some reflections on learning, creativity, and multitasking, and Jen dives into the impact of the attention economy on how students receive, process, and learn information. The conversation continues and covers the concept of continuous partial attention, the use of AI, and how the arts can help us continue to learn in creative ways.

Full episode transcript below.

Resources and Links

• Join the Art of Ed Community
• Continuous Partial Attention
• Listen to the Your Undivided Attention podcast
• The Disengaged Teen

Transcript

Tim:

Welcome to Art Ed Radio, the podcast for art teachers. This show is produced by the Art of Education. And I’m your host, Tim Bogatz.

All right. Welcome to the show. Everyone. Today we are going to be talking about a lot of things that have been on my mind lately, just a little bit about technology, about kids focusing about the intersection of you know, technology and focus and how we can get our kids kind of combating that when they’re in the art room and joining me today is going to be Jen Lieben.

Jen, 1st of all, how are you?

Jen: I’m doing. Okay. I’m doing all right.

Tim:

Good, good. I’m glad to hear that I appreciate you joining me, and I guess I don’t know exactly where to start, because I feel like I have all of these things that I’ve been thinking about reflecting on. And that’s what we talk about on the podcast all the time, about you know, reflecting and learning and thinking about what we do. And so we’re kind of there today. So anyway, thank you for joining me for a very unstructured podcast about all the things that are on my mind.

Jen:

I was thinking about the way that you described it. And you’re like, and like technology and kids’ motivation. And it’s really we’re talking about the attention economy today. So if we want to sound very.

Tim:

Thank you for succinctly putting that together for me. I appreciate that.

First,  I just kind of want to put all of my thoughts out there. So I don’t know if we want to call this a brain dump, or what it might be. But I want to just share some of the things that have been on my mind, and I would love you to just react to any of it. That kind of piques your interest.

Jen: Just say the 1st word that comes to your mind.

Tim:

No, but I’ve just been thinking about how you know there are so many demands on our attention, the attention economy, like you said, and when you know everything is happening at once, we’re trying to pay attention to everything. And when we try to do everything, it makes it really difficult to focus on any one thing, and if we can’t focus on something, we can’t get good at it. And I think maybe the big issue here that I see in art rooms is that if kids can’t get good at something right away, they think it’s not worth trying.

Jen:

Yep.

Tim:

Yeah, like, if there’s not immediate mastery, they’re like, no, just just not worth our time.And when that’s happening, and we’re constantly trying to find stimulation when we’re always overstimulated, always going a million places at once, but not focusing on anything, not doing anything fulfilling. And you know, just thinking about this, where does it go in the art room, like, we don’t take time to synthesize ideas, put ideas together because we’re not taking the time to think deeply about anything. We’re not able to generate ideas or evaluate ideas, because our attention is always being split in all these different directions.

And you know, I think there’s, you know, we talk about flow state when it comes to creativity, and it’s so hard to get there because we’re never focused for long enough, and we never really immerse ourselves deeply with any topics or any ideas. So

Anyway, that’s a lot of stuff. But I would appreciate any any thoughts you have on on any of those things.

Jen:

I’m gonna pull out. I’m gonna pull my inner curmudgeon out of my pocket. And oh, my God!

Tim:

Usually, that’s my job on the podcast. So yes, please.

Jen:

I’m gonna blame it on email. Because when I started, okay, let me explain. When I started in the art room like email was just a thing. That’s how old I am, you know, like it existed.

Tim:

Say I lived this as well. Yes.

Jen:

It wasn’t the main form of communication. So when I 1st started, I would get to school, go down to my classroom, and get things set up for the day. So unless the big overhead announcements came on and said, like Mrs. Lieben, well, at the time Mrs. Miller came to the main office, like the world, was cool, and it was just me and my art room and thinking about what I was doing was no other distraction, and during the 1st 3 class periods of the day until I had a plan period. It was just me, like I’d write a note on a post. It’s like, oh, make 20 copies of this when you get to your break or note, you know. Ask Marlene, the secretary, about your art order when you get up there, you know, and I’d have like a little list. So then I get to my plan period, I’d be like, okay, I’ve got to go up to the main office. I’ve got to make copies. I got to ask this. I got to put this note in this teacher’s mailbox, for you know that like that was how I communicated, so I could only.

Tim:

We communicate.

Jen:

During that plan period, time of 40 min, or whatever. And then that was it. It was back down in my room. There was no like, I’m sitting here for a second. Let me open up my email. So that’s that whole like, things are sucking our attention away. And the whole attention. Economy is that it’s so hard to focus on one thing, because there are so many things, let alone all the students going. Mrs. Lehman, Mrs. Lehman, Mrs. Lehman. At the same time, like there’s so much drawing your attention. It’s an impossible task. So yes, I noticed a huge change when we stopped doing like teacher mailboxes, I mean, they still exist. But like you’re lucky if you check that once a day, it’s the opposite now. So.

Tim:

Right. And now you’re constant.

I blame email or sending text, well, and I 2 points that come into my mind as you’re saying, that number one, like all of our distractions, are the same place that we do all of our work, you know. So every time every time we go to our email. You know, Instagram and Youtube. And whatever games are literally a click away. And it’s so easy to be like this, work isn’t fun. Let’s do something fun.

And the second part of that is, our kids don’t know any different. They did not live back when you know the screens were not prevalent. They don’t know what it’s like to not have a device in front of them for most of their time, and so that makes it really, really different. And I guess my question is, how does that affect us as teachers? If we have to pay attention to so many different things, you know, not only the technology, but the kids in our classroom, and all of the distractions that come with that, and all of the distractions that they have, like, can we really focus on our classroom?

Jen: I’m gonna go short. Answer I’m gonna go with is no like like something has to give at a certain point. But like I don’t know. The struggle is real. So, so, Tim, you had given me a link to an article that you read called continuous partial attention, and I read through it. I loved. I actually like made a note that in the article they talked about how our brain goes into this like always in crisis mode, like we’re constantly in fight or flight, because we don’t know like, which of the the emails we’re getting or which of the notifications on our phone that are dinging is a tiger or something, really. Yes. You know, like I’m not gonna lie. I don’t subscribe to the New York Times. But I get like their daily digests, or whatever, and I get these ones that at the beginning say breaking news, and every time I see one that says breaking news. My heart goes like what’s happened now, and I’m like, Oh, my God, I need to send those to spam because I’ve realized what those are. You know, it’s.

Tim:

Yeah.

Jen:

That fight or flight, like if you see an email from your principal, and I don’t know if your brain is like mine, you immediately go. Oh, I’m in trouble, you know, but like so, it’s so hard for our brains to determine, like what’s worth giving my attention to, and what’s just a.

Tim:

Yeah, everything. Everything seems important, and you know, especially when they put breaking news on.

Jen:

Yes.

Tim:

Every single article that comes out. It’s really tough to differentiate and really tough to figure out what is actually important. And I guess for that concept of continuous partial attention. It’s like multitasking. But without actually focusing on anything. If I can, just, you know, summarize it really quickly.

Jen:

Yeah.

Tim: You know, and like multitasking. When when that 1st came about, you know the, it’s the idea of like doing the dishes, while listening to a podcast or, you know, doing something that is, is kind of mindless. You know.

Jen:

Yeah.

Tim: That doesn’t take a lot of thought while doing something that is actually knocking things off your to do list eating lunch while grading papers would be a great example of of you know what we do in the classroom, but it’s kind of evolved to the point, and I guess continuous partial attention is not a new concept, but it’s fairly new to me.

But it’s just kind of stating that we’ve evolved into thinking that we’re multitasking, but really just kind of halfheartedly doing all of the different things at once. You know, we’re continuously having our attention split. We’re not focusing. And even though we feel like we’re multitasking. We’re just doing a bad job at everything.

Jen:

No, I think the research that I’ve seen kind of shows that. Yeah, you’re not. We think we’re doing well. But we’re really not. And like, I’ve also thought a lot about task switching. And like, I know from my brain the amount of time it takes like if I get interrupted while I’m typing something or something like the time it takes me to get back into that like sometimes, like state of flow is. It’s insane, like if my! If my head goes squirrel and I get like distracted, it’s very much like, wait, what was I doing like I went. I was trying to find this thing in my files, and I completely forgot what the thing was I was looking for, because I just got so like everything is so fleeting and doesn’t. I don’t know. I used to chalk it up to like. Oh, I’m getting older and I can, but I’m I’m getting a little skeptical now. I’m like.

Tim:

But honestly like it. It is something that is almost beyond your control, like just.

Jen:

Yeah.

Tim:

With all of the demands, are you okay? I want to ask you, though, like we also had talked, you know, off air about. I think it was called the Disengaged Teen that you were reading. Can you talk a little bit about that, and kind of give that some context as far as what we’re talking about here?

Jen:

So interestingly enough, we’re talking about the attention economy. I really like this podcast called Your Undivided Attention. And it’s a lot of time about technology, and they will talk about educational topics. And the latest one was rethinking school in the age of AI, and they were interviewing an author and full disclosure. I have not read her book. This is just me giving you the story of the interview that I heard with her, and I have a basic summary. So I can’t. You know I’m not vetting that any of her stuff, you know, because God forbid! We come back later and find out it’s bad, but only because I was a fan of do you know, Jonathan Haidt, and the anxious generation.

And then like the data behind it. Now we found it’s kind of sketchy like when it 1st came out. I was like, this sounds really good. And then I learned more, and I was like, Oh, I don’t know about. So that’s so. I’m hesitant to like. We all need to read this book.

Tim:

No, that’s fair. But also I want to be fair.

Jen:

Right here.

Tim:

We’re kind of processing things in real time.

Jen:

Yeah.

Tim:

That is something that has made you think so.

Jen:

But in this book, she was talking about the current state of teaching, which, since you know, the advent of Covid, things are vastly, vastly different. And the 4, the 4 learning modes, or like learning personalities of students. And she says that a lot of students nowadays are just the passengers. They’re sitting there waiting for the day to get over doing the thing. Turn it in, and which is it? Comes back to the whole thing with like AI. And that’s why kids are just kind of like trying to check the box and get the job done. And you know, it’s the game of school, or whatever.

Then, within those groups, you have kids who are the achievers and the overachievers. And what’s happening is they’re trying so hard to do well, and to do really well, that it’s creating this like all the anxiety and the like, perfectionism and like issues. And then we have the other kids who are the resistors, and they don’t want to do anything, and they’re going to dig their heels in. And they’re going to cause problems. And you know.

He almost said, like the resistors are the kids you should really be listening to because they’re giving you the information they’re telling you like, we don’t like this. This is terrible. We need to change things. They’re content to just sit there.

Tim:

And you feel like they’re complaining. But really, they may be offering you.

Jen:

Giving you information.

Tim:

Important information.

Jen:

Yeah, yeah. So she did bring up this 4.th I don’t know what we would call it like a personality, or whatever in kids that we should. Her goal is that we should be finding these explorers and changing our kids from being resistors and passengers to achievers and explorers. And just being curious and wanting to learn more. And

I was like, Okay, this is great. But what do we like? What’s the concrete like? What’s the takeaway? And what should we be doing about it? What are the strategies, you know? And so, she said, the importance of following teens.

interests, and advocating for making learning, you know, more relevant and connecting schoolwork to real-life experiences. It made me think about project-based learning, so honestly, like in the end, all of these things, you know, being equal, it’s nothing new or earth-shattering or different from what we were kind of trying to do before, curriculum relevant is always really important. Making things interesting to kids has always been really important.

Tim:

Yes.

Jen:

New concepts to us, but it did make me think about just the strength of the arts in general, like this is stuff that we already do, or this is stuff we could already be doing in art. I mean, you can always make your life harder, like for real. But, like art teachers already do, like project-based learning. We already do performance-based learning. We’re not asking kids to write papers, you know. And before kids are going to ChatGPT. We are doing things that require them to in theory, hopefully think a little bit deeper, to to be constructing and building and creating from conceptual ideas or using their critical thinking and all those things. So I don’t know. It just makes me think it puts art teachers in a unique position to really support those goals of working towards students’ interests, you know, connecting schoolwork to real-life experiences and applications. So that’s gonna be maybe a little bit harder for our teachers because you’re like, when am I going to use drawing perspective, you know, or things like that, like you are, you’re gonna have to like, well, okay? Or you’re going to have to think about it a little differently, you know, like, maybe, maybe our goal isn’t teaching perspective. It’s.

Tim:

I have some. I have some big thoughts on teaching perspective.

Jen:

I know you do. Which is why I went there. Yeah.

Tim:

What a waste of time it is! But we can save those for another discussion.

Jen:

Another podcast.

Tim:

Okay. So I want to ask you when you bring up things like project-based learning. And you know, just thinking deeply synthesizing ideas. All of that?

Could we lean into that? And you know, really focus on what the arts can do uniquely.

And can we do that without technology in our classroom, I guess, is the question, like, I don’t want to feel like I’m attacking technology here. But like, do we have to have tech in the art room? Should we have technology in the art room? Or do you think we should lean into?  You know, it’s all of the hands-on learning, all of the project-based stuff that we can do pretty creatively, pretty uniquely, like, I mean, I’m sure the answer is somewhere in between. But, like what are what are your thoughts? There.

Jen:

Yeah, I mean, there’s there’s something to be said for like not having technology, like as time goes on. And I’m a big tech fan like people that know me. You’re gonna have a hard time getting me to say like tech. But as time goes on I really do question the need for it with younger kids. I’m not 100% sure that it is. And then when it comes to like AI and stuff, I don’t even know that that’s something that is appropriate, for I mean, dare I say, even like Middle school? Because if you.

I’m having trouble articulating this. But we, meaning adults, we use AI in theory, in the best way possible, like to help review ideas we already have or revise writing that we have already done.

Tim: Or no. We have the basics to help us with concepts that we already know about, or you know things that things that we have learned in the past. It’s not replacing our learning.

Jen:

Yes, that’s actually a really good way of saying that. And I worry that with pushing it towards younger kids. It’s taking that away, and they don’t have that foundation. And it just becomes this like, I’m gonna you know, click a button, and it’s done for me. And I don’t have the knowledge behind it, or the know-how, or the critical thinking.

Tim:

Yes.

Jen:

Weird because I go back and forth between like thinking about the one-to-one, you know, initiatives with Chrome.

Tim:

Right.

Jen:

Like that. And teachers were freaking out because I can’t give a multiple choice test anymore. I can’t do that because kids are just going to Google. The answers, and the result of that was just like, Well.

Tim:

Maybe we shouldn’t be giving tests where you just Google, the answers, we’re just asking them to memorize facts. Yeah, we should be writing better questions.

Jen:

Maybe that’s yeah. Maybe that’s the problem. So now that we’re coming across this, like, well, we can’t have kids write papers because ChatGPT. Well, maybe we shouldn’t be having them write papers. Then maybe that’s what I mean, and I’m not. And I really want to make sure this comes across right. I’m not like saying that learning how to read and write, and like the power of language, isn’t vastly important, because it is, but the way that we do it. I think we need to change that. And the way we evaluate it needs to be different. And we need to change that. Maybe students need to explain things verbally in person, rather.

Tim: Or maybe write by hand. Thank you.

Jen:

Or write by hand, but also like, maybe you demonstrate your learning in other modes, such as the arts, you know, and you create an artwork, and you have to explain the artwork, you know, whether you write it out by hand, or you. You tell me about your artwork in order to, you know, express your communication or your evidence of understanding of the curricular concepts.

Tim: 

Yeah, no, no, I know exactly where you’re coming from, and I guess the other topic that I want to bring up, that you’ve brought up a couple times. AI, and just thinking about artificial intelligence in relation to the art room. You know, a few questions come to mind. So again, if I can ask a couple of things and just have you respond wherever you want? You know, what do you know? AI-generated art, like, what does that teach our students about originality?

And you know, what do kids need to know about biases that are embedded in those systems, and how they were trained, and how they were put together? And if we are going to have AI in our curriculum, how do we still help our students critique it? And how do we help them create original stuff and not just consume, not just be on the receiving end of whatever AI is putting out there, like, how do we deal with that?

Jen:

Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think a lot of the questions that you brought up are also like the answers, because we need to talk to our students about how AI can give us biased images, or how it sucks away the originality, or where it’s drawing the information from and how it works. You know, those are all things that need to be discussed and talked about, and I don’t know that any of us really have the right answer because we’re all still kind of in this wild west of AI. I know that anytime I’ve asked AI to do a picture for me, and it’s got humans in it. It always looks weird, and they’ve got extra fingers, and they’ve got things. So, so in some sense we’re still in a place where, like, it’s hard to get like good AI. I don’t know but that doesn’t mean it’s safer we shouldn’t be thinking about that moving forward like, I think there’s a place for it, I and this this is just my opinion.

Here’s what Jen thinks, you know. Like when you use AI in the classroom. I think it becomes more of a process versus product thing, like you can use it as a tool as part of the process, for, in my opinion, and you know it’s a thing, but your end product shouldn’t be like this picture that I can just.

It’s not available that I can just make it, you know, like the way that you can’t. You don’t want to Google. An answer like it should still be like there’s a place for it, but it’s not the final product, but at the same time, like, let’s talk about contemporary art, and like there are artists that do just make things with AI, you know, but I mean there’s also you could have a urinal and call it art, too, you know. So, so there’s the thing about art is they’re always going to challenge whatever it is that you say. So that’s.

Tim:

Yeah, exactly.

Jen:

There is no right answer.

Tim:

No, that’s very true, and you know that might be a fun discussion right there, like we’ve had ready made for over a century, and like isn’t AI just a ready made again? There! There are so many things that you know we could talk about, so many avenues that we could go down. So let’s do this, Jen. Let’s wrap it up here. And then, since you are in charge of the Art of Ed Community, can we maybe continue this discussion in the community when this episode comes out? Would that be all right?

Jen:

I think the question is, is AI art already made? I love that question so much so. Yes.

Tim: Okay, okay, that sounds good. So we can figure out exactly how that’s gonna go. But until then, Jen, thank you so much for joining me in talking through some very vague ideas. But it’s been really fun to kind of process this with you, and I appreciate your perspective.

Jen: I’m happy to spout my weird opinions anytime.