More Hot Takes for the Summer (Ep. 527)

Tim: Welcome, everyone, to the show. Welcome to our second annual hot takes episode. It is the middle of the summer. Amanda Heyn is joining me now. Amanda, how are you?

Amanda: Good. I feel like this is the perfect time to record this because I am literally living in a ball of Canadian fire smoke.

Tim: Right? It’s about 101 degrees where I am, you can’t breathe where you are, and we’re getting to the end of July — it’s time for some hot takes, I believe.

Amanda: I think maybe this just happened because the universe knew we were recording and it wanted to give us additional ambience. I’m not a fan.

Tim: Fair enough. Before we get into our hot takes, can we do a quick introduction? Can you go first?

Amanda: Sure. I’m Amanda Heine. I’m the Director of Community Engagement at The Art of Education University, and I oversee the team that makes all of our media and runs the Art of Ed community. I used to be an elementary art teacher.

Tim: And I am Tim Bogatz, host of this here podcast, the Art Ed Radio podcast — long-time art teacher, and I now work for the Art of Ed doing this podcast every week, as well as the Art Ed Now conference, which is coming up very, very soon. We are very excited about that. We’ll talk about it in just a second, but first I want to set the stage for hot takes.

Basically, a hot take is an opinion — preferably a controversial one that goes against the consensus — and we’re trying to spark debate. Think of it as a rant about one of your pet peeves. It’s rooted in your true feelings, but we’re going a little bit over the top with it. It should be a little fun and probably spark a discussion. Are we a little too dramatic? Yes. But is there a kernel of truth there? Hopefully also yes.

Last year, for example, I did the now-infamous rant about how teaching perspective drawing is just a waste of everybody’s time. That made some people angry. I’m not trying to make anybody mad with anything we say today, but we are trying to get you to think and maybe do a little debate in your mind. And if you need to yell at us along the way, that’s fine too. There are people who are still salty a year later about the perspective thing, so I appreciate everyone who agreed with me on that one.

Amanda: It was such a good one because you were so passionate about it. But I think the real point of a hot take is that even if you don’t agree, it can help clarify your own opinion on why you disagree. That’s the real beauty of it — it’s meant to be a fun debate. Drawing perspective is not life or death, but it’s really fun to debate and clarify your own thinking about an art ed topic in a fun way.

Tim: Absolutely. And I appreciated all the DMs I got that said things like, “I never thought about this” or “I never thought about it in this way” — that’s exactly what we’re going for.

Now, before we get into our hot takes, let’s chat about what’s hot at the Art of Ed this summer. I want to start with Mini Masterpieces.

Amanda: I love it.

Tim: I’m seeing it all over Instagram right now — people doing their collages, all their creating. It’s going to continue through the end of July and it’s really, really fun to see what everybody’s been up to. A lot of people do it every single day, but that’s not realistic for everyone. So if you want to jump in and out, there’s still time to participate. Check it out on Instagram or on the Art of Ed — great prompt list, great opportunity to make some art.

Amanda: Yes! And can I talk about the Art of Ed community? On Wednesday, July 22nd at 6 p.m. Central, we have Pop-Up Studio with Catie Nasser and AOEU students. If you’re a student, come work on your coursework. It’s just a time where we all get together, chat, and work on whatever we’re working on. Very low-key. Excellent.

We also have our last Mini-Masterpieces Maker Monday on Monday, July 27th at 12 p.m. Central. That’s another live 30 minutes of art making to set aside time for yourself. We don’t care what you work on — come hang out! And if you’re not a community member yet, join us at community.theartofeducation.edu. We cannot wait for you to join us.

Tim: Yes, it’s a great place to hang out. I love being there. And then the last thing — as I mentioned, the Art Ed Now Conference is coming very soon. We’ll start Friday, July 31st with some art making, an evening of games and fun. Saturday is the main event with keynote Oliver Jeffers — illustrator of The Day the Crayons Quit — as well as a ton of incredible teachers sharing wonderful ideas and strategies, and some inspiration for you going into the school year. Sunday, August 2nd is the After Pass with asynchronous learning where you can find content specific to you, your classroom, and your students. You can go to theartofeducation.edu/now to find out everything you need to know. Please come join us!

Amanda: Yeah, and don’t miss the kickoff! We are doing the Great Art Ed Make-Off, and there will be wigs involved. I’m just going to say — please join us.

Tim: Please join us. If you have time, watch an episode or two of The Great British Bake Off and you’ll appreciate the evening just a little bit more.

Tim: All right, Amanda, are you ready for my real-life hot take before we get into the Art Ed hot takes? I’ve been thinking about this one for a while, and I have decided that short people need to start reaching things on the ground and on the lower shelves for me.

Amanda: A lot of you don’t know this, but Tim and I are tall people. Please expand — this is already resonating with me.

Tim: I am tall. I have long arms. For the past 35 years, I’ve been reaching things up on the shelf for people, and I’m fine with that. I love going to the grocery store, reaching something for an older woman, having a little conversation — that makes my day every time. But the ground is a long way away. So if there’s something on the bottom shelf, if I’ve dropped my keys, I’m just asking for a little bit of help. You’re five-foot-four — you’re down there. It’s easy for you to grab it. I feel like the universe will be a little more aligned if I can just have somebody bend down and hand things up to me.

Amanda: They really are so delighted when you help them with the top shelf. I’m delighted to be asked. But maybe I’ll start thinking about this differently now.

Tim: If I drop something, why can’t I just say, “You’re closer — can you grab that for me?” All right, do you have a real-life hot take?

Amanda: I do. My hot take is: no one cares about your dreams. I don’t want to hear about something that did not happen to you. I don’t care if you flew or if a spider was chasing you. Are dreams personally relevant? Sure — sometimes I wake up and think, wow, my brain is really processing something in a weird way. But are your dreams relevant to me? Absolutely not. Get a dream journal. Go to therapy. Do not tell me what happened to you when you were unconscious.

Tim: I love it. That is a great take. I’ve never really thought about it, but now that you mention it — yeah, I don’t need to know about that.

Amanda: When someone starts a dream story, what are you hoping I’ll say? The only possible response is, “Wow, that’s weird.” Unless I’m in your dream — then maybe it’s personally relevant to me. Maybe.

Tim: All right, we’re going to shift now to our Art Ed hot takes. We asked a few of our friends here at the Art of Ed to share a few, and we also have some voicemails from members of the Art of Ed community. Our first submission is from Janet Taylor.

This is Janet Taylor, and for those of you who don’t know me, I work at Art of Ed, but also I am a full-time high school art teacher in the Chicago burbs. 

My hot take is, you don’t have behavior problems, you have curriculum problems. 

OK, this does sound really harsh, but I mean it is a hot take after all. 

And there are always exceptions, but let’s just say, if you create curriculum that is engaging, purposeful, and hits that sweet spot of learning, you know, like meeting students where they are, behavior is not an issue.  Students are intrinsically curious and want to learn. You just have too long of units that don’t sustain their attention or you’re just not tapping into their interests. 

I mean, are you teaching for you or for them? Or maybe the work is just too easy and lacks meaning or purpose to them. 

Fix the curriculum. Fix the behavior issues.

Amanda: “Are you teaching for you or for them?” — that might be the best hot take I’ve ever heard. I think teachers sometimes get stuck — myself included — in the rut of “this is my precious curriculum, these are my favorite projects, I love to teach this, and if kids don’t like it, it’s their fault.” And really, nothing could be further from the truth. If the kids are not engaged, you have nothing. You have nowhere to go. They’re not going to work for you, they’re not going to behave for you. Now of course this is a hot take, so it lacks nuance — there are times where even with the best planning and the most engaging lessons, behavior problems will crop up. But overall, I am with Janet on this one.

Tim: I’m right along the same lines as you. The nuance is important — I appreciated her caveat that there are exceptions. If you’ve taught at a tough school, you know there are exceptions. But overall, I 100% agree with Janet. If kids are engaged and working with purpose, your behavior issues are going to plummet. Do what you can to give them some voice and let them explore through their art making. Kids are inherently curious, and when you tap into that curiosity, both you and your students are going to be better off.

Okay, our next submission comes from the community — a voicemail from Rose.

Amanda: I love this hot take. Markers are the enemy — it’s so funny to me. And honestly, I think Rose is right. Besides Sharpies, I cannot think of a single art project where my students used markers to add color, other than maybe for a fundraiser. A juicy marker for a fundraiser can be nice. In my elementary classroom, they were always available for early-finish activities — color a mandala, do a free draw — but I don’t consider a water-based marker a fine art supply. Really nice alcohol markers in the hands of very talented kids? Okay. But at the elementary level specifically — no thank you. Also, the maintenance of markers is a lot. The caps get lost, they dry out, and 50% of them at any given time are not working at full capacity.

Tim: You said a nice, juicy marker is great — but how often are they juicy? How often do you find good ones?

Amanda: One time a year, when you open a brand new class pack. That’s it.

Tim: I’m also on board with Rose’s take. Nice alcohol markers can be great — if you have good markers, skilled students, and the patience to use them well. But even at the high school level, that’s a lot of ifs. I wouldn’t go as far as “markers are the enemy” — I love that line — but it is worth asking: when are markers actually the best tool for what you’re trying to do?

All right, we’re going back to an Art of Ed submission. Our community manager, Jen, is here with her hot take.

Hey, Tim and Amanda, this is Jen, your favorite friend from the Art of Ed Community, and I would like to tell you all about my art education hot take.

Now, I’m a little hesitant here cause I, I don’t want to offend anyone.

I know there are a lot of people that do this particular job, and, no, no shame in that game, but I don’t think that sip and paint events count as art.

Sip and paint events.

They’re fun, they’re cute, but you’re not really doing the art thing. You’re not like thinking and creating, you know, like, you’re not generating your own art. You’re just kind of copying and follow directions. It’s very paint by number, so, don’t kill me for this one.

I mean, if you’re the person teaching it and you’re coming up with the ideas, yes, you’re making the art, but the people that are there, paint and sip art is not art.

Sorry.

Amanda: I do understand what Jen is saying. Is paint and sip creative? I don’t think so — especially if everyone is painting the same two bird silhouettes. Maybe someone is using purple in their sunset. It’s a bit paint-by-numbers to me, essentially. But is it worthwhile for people who aren’t plugged into art making in any other way? I do think so. As someone who has gotten very into Rexlace keychain making this summer — anyone else having a 90s craft summer? — I think there’s value there. It’s meditative, it’s calming, it’s fun, and usually you’re doing it in a community with other people. It brings us to a really deep question: Is engaging in art making beneficial even if it isn’t overly creative? And I think the answer is yes. Making things with your hands is always a good idea. But I do agree with Jen that paint and sip is not a fine arts, uber-creative experience.

Tim: I agree — any creating is better than no creating, especially for people who aren’t generally engaged with the arts. Anytime you can get a paintbrush in their hands, anytime you can get them thinking about art, talking about art, making art — those are wonderful things. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Let’s get people out there making things, and maybe eventually we can get them to more creative, more artistic things. In the meantime, let’s meet them where they are.

Amanda: Maybe paint and sip is both art and not art. Is that clear?

Tim: All right, we have another community submission from Holly. Holly called in and left a voicemail, but we had a little trouble with the audio. A quick summary: Holly’s hot take was that it should be required for everyone to take at least a few art classes. Art has so many benefits — it builds critical thinking skills, helps us relax, opens up a path for fun. And she said, maybe if everyone were required to take art, we wouldn’t have administrators who don’t find value in the arts.

Amanda: I love this idea. Mandatory art for all — and not just in elementary school. You need some courses close to adulthood. Maybe every teacher training program should require everyone to do a little bit of art, a little bit of PE, a little bit of music. My husband had to take an Art for Seniors course in high school to fulfill a fine arts requirement, and it was so great for him. He’d had a less-than-ideal elementary art experience — kind of scarred by a teacher who wasn’t very kind — and he really found joy in art making in that class. I think that would be beneficial for everyone.

Tim: I think so too. And some kids, if they weren’t ready to appreciate art when they were younger, might be more open to it at 17 or 18. I definitely agree with Holly, and I’d add — let it be open to visual and performing arts. Get kids in band, get kids in dance. Kids who are already involved in the arts will come into visual arts from a different perspective, and it makes them more well-rounded. But I want to take this a step further: beyond just requiring art classes, I think administrators need to maybe take some classes — or even better, teach some art classes.

Amanda: I love that. Yes — mandatory subbing in an art room once a semester. That would go really far, I think.

Tim: I’ve had a couple of administrators who came in on a regular basis and genuinely appreciated what was going on, and the ones who didn’t — I always wished they would. The kids would love to see them in there. And going back to Holly’s point, they’re going to find more value in it if they see what’s actually going on. Getting more admins into the art room — that’s our next goal.

Okay, and we have another hot take here from Lindsey.

Amanda: I really like this hot take. “Choice classrooms have gone too far” — it’s so incendiary in one sentence. And the hot take is more nuanced than that, but I am with Lindsay on this one. Total free choice can be super overwhelming to kids, and it causes some of them to completely shut down. When you’re building in choice — which I am a huge fan of — it’s also important to build in scaffolding at the same time. Kids first need the skills to understand how to access their creative brain, what kinds of decisions need to be made, and how to start, move through, and complete an artwork. Some kids will take an idea and run with it no matter what, but lots of kids are not wired that way. Full choice without building in those skills first is doing those other kids a disservice, quite frankly.

Tim: Scaffolding is just so important, and I agree with you there. The other thing that caught my attention is when Lindsay says we’re promoting the idea that anyone can teach art. I haven’t thought about it in that way before, which is exactly what we talked about in the intro. I don’t necessarily agree with that conclusion, but it’s making me think. If every kid is just off doing their own thing, I know what we’re doing as teachers — we’re instructing, guiding, explaining, and assessing — but does that come through clearly to someone observing from the outside, or to an administrator asking about the program? We always say that choice is a spectrum and everyone needs to find their space on it. But I’ll back up Lindsay: we can use constraints to benefit our students and guide them toward their own decision-making before going full choice.

Amanda: For sure.

Tim: Right. Our last community submission is from Monica.

Tim: Amanda, I’d love your thoughts here. We’ve spent a few mailbag episodes telling teachers they need to relax and refresh over the summer, and Monica is saying: no, put the work in. Get your inspiration organized. Get ready for next year.

Amanda: I love this idea. I try to drag my kids to an art museum literally every time we travel. But I also think this might be a “good for you, not for me” situation. There are people like Monica who are out here loving the hustle, finding inspiration everywhere they go, and not only finding it but capturing it, organizing it, and thoughtfully incorporating it into their curriculum. That’s so, so valuable for her and her students. But do I think every teacher has to do that? No. You can absolutely have a solid, repeatable curriculum that works well. But going back to Janet’s take, you do need to make sure you’re doing something to ensure your curriculum stays engaging for your students — and that likely means looking at it with fresh eyes and making tweaks each year.

Tim: Well said. Okay — do you have your hot take ready? Do you mind if I go first?

Amanda: I think you should.

Tim: My hot take for this summer is: grading on effort is the worst type of grading. We tell ourselves it’s the most fair way to do things, that it helps the kids who aren’t as talented, that it levels the playing field for everyone. But those things are not true. Effort is one of the least measurable things you can grade. Giving kids points for looking engaged while you talk, asking questions, or just keeping their hands busy even when they’re not really working — that’s all just performance. Kids who know how to play the game of school are getting points for doing nothing.

Meanwhile, you might have another kid over in the corner who is thinking really deeply about what you’re discussing, taking their time, going through the creative process — but that’s not reflected on the page in the time you’re expecting, and they’re getting a failing grade. One kid is scribbling without thinking and asking questions just to be visible, getting an A. The other kid is genuinely engaging, and they’re failing. Neither of those grades is telling you anything worthwhile.

I would ask people to stop grading on who you feel bad for, who is well behaved, or who you think is trying hard. That’s not how we fill out a rubric. Assessments need to give information to kids about where they are and what they can do next. When you’re grading on effort, you’re basically telling them, “I saw you trying” — and not much more than that. Maybe that’s worth some praise, a pat on the back, but it’s definitely not worth a grade.

Amanda: Okay, that was an excellent hot take. And while you were talking, it made me think: you’re grading compliance, not effort. And that’s also something I don’t think we need to grade. In general, I agree with you. I’m a fan of standards-based grading — can you, or can you not, master these specific skills? And if not, how can we move you further toward those goals? I think grading can be somewhat individual in the sense of “how far did you come in your skill set?” But not “how hard are you trying.” Some teachers use effort grading because they believe perseverance is a good trait to develop in students, and some students are only externally motivated by grades. In a perfect world, those should be two separate things — a grade for meeting the standards, and then a comment section for things like effort or praising positive behavior. Nothing should ever come as a surprise on the report card. Unfortunately, in many places, that’s not really how things work, so it can become a systems issue when you can only give one letter or number to encompass everything.

Tim: Yeah, it’s tough.

Amanda: Okay, my art-related hot take is: a little bit of cookie cutter art is good. Now, should you build a whole curriculum around this? Absolutely not — I’m talking one to two projects a year. But I think this type of project gets dumped on a lot, and I don’t think that’s fair.

Here’s why: Number one, it builds confidence. Going back to Lindsay’s hot take, some kids are completely paralyzed when assignments are too open. Following someone step-by-step is a valid way to learn — going back to Jen’s hot take about paint and sip, this can be a place where kids are learning foundational skills, copying the master, whatever you want to call it. There’s a reason the best practice for scaffolding is “I do, we do, you do” — that’s been proven to work, and these types of projects can help students build those skills.

And finally, those tried-and-true step-by-step projects are an advocacy shortcut. They do so well for fundraisers, they’re fun for kids to bring home, parents look forward to them, and parents who don’t know a lot about art can look at their child’s work and say, “Wow, my kid drew a beautiful hot air balloon — this is so colorful, I’m going to put this on my wall.” That makes the kid feel great. Whether we like it or not, those projects are impressive to parents. Once you’ve hooked people with that easy win, you can totally expand on the innumerable benefits of exploratory techniques and productive struggle.

Tim: Okay. My immediate reaction is I don’t agree with you, but you make a convincing case. That’s a good take.

Tim: Well, that is an episode full of hot takes and I really enjoyed this. If you’re listening and want to contribute your own take or just yell at us about ours, please come to the Art of Ed community. You can find Amanda there, you can find me there. We would love to continue the discussion with you. Again, that’s community.theartofeducation.edu — we can keep the hot takes going. Amanda, anything else before we go?

Amanda: No, we’re just looking forward to seeing you in the community, and we’re looking forward to seeing you at Now. Thanks, bye!