Overrated Artists, Underrated Artists, and AP Art History (Ep. 531)

In this episode of Art Ed Radio, host Tim Bogatz welcomes back high school art teacher Jenn Russell for an honest and entertaining conversation about teaching art history. Tim and Jenn discuss why art history works best when it is taught as a connected story full of drama, influence, cultural context, and unexpected twists. They also share their lists of overrated artists, as well as their lists of underrated artists who deserve a little more attention and respect. Jenn also shares her strategies for teaching AP Art History, connecting artworks to contemporary culture, and helping students move from memorable stories and strong reactions to thoughtful analysis.

Tim Bogatz: All right, Jenn Russell is joining me. Jenn, welcome back to the show. How are you?

Jenn Russell: Good! How are you? I’m excited to be here.

Tim Bogatz: I know it has been a while since we have talked, so I’m really glad to have you on the podcast. I know you’re busy, and I know it is the start of school and things are hectic, but I appreciate you coming on. I also appreciate you being willing to talk about art history with me.

We have an exciting list coming up with our most overrated and most underrated artists. Before we get to that, I would love to talk in general about art history and teaching art history. What are your favorite parts of art history? What excites you about it in general, and what excites you about teaching it to your students?

Jenn Russell: To me, the most exciting part is watching the connections. I try to teach art history as if it were one long movie, which is normally how I approach history in general. Art history feels like a more exciting movie because there are salacious parts and drama. There is murder—hashtag Caravaggio—and all sorts of juicy details.

Those details excite my students. They make connections and say, “Oh my gosh, that’s where I’ve seen that,” or, “That’s how it happened.” The behind-the-scenes stories keep them entertained and tuned in. I love it.

Tim Bogatz: I love that, too. I love the story of art history—how artists respond to other artists, how the next generation responds by going back even further, and how there is all of this interplay.

If you can intersperse that with the drama of car crashes, murder, relationships, and all of those other side stories, they become great hooks. The paintings and sculptures themselves can be exciting, but if you need an extra hook, those extracurricular stories can help you tell the story.

Before we get into our list of overrated and underrated artists, I wanted to ask about the difference between the things you personally like and the things you share with students. Is there a separation for you? Are there artists you do not want to teach or do not like to teach but feel you have to because they are important enough to the curriculum or the story of art history?

Jenn Russell: If you have ever seen my face or heard my voice in these parts of Art Ed Radio or anywhere else, you know I am an honest person. My students really appreciate that. When I teach art history, I am one hundred percent transparent, and my kids roast me about it.

They say, “You have seventy-five favorites. Not everyone can be your favorite.” I say, “First of all, this is my classroom. I make the rules. Yes, everyone can be my favorite. Why can’t everybody be my favorite?”

I am also honest when I say, “I don’t know if I vibe with this.” I can recognize that it is an important foundation for what we know as art, even if I do not love it. I find Mannerism to be the biggest “yikes.” I’ll say, “What are we doing here?” But then I tell students, “I do not want to sway your opinion. You could like these very green tones if that is your vibe. You could like the mismatched color scheme and the sickly figures.”

That honesty incites conversation. Students get to be honest and build their own opinions without me necessarily swaying them. Art history is important and integral, and I think everybody should take it. I get messages from former students saying, “Oh my gosh, I saw this, and it reminded me of that, so I had to tell you.”

Those connections happen because we had honest conversations about what I liked and did not like. It invited students to evaluate the art and the artist and form their own opinions. I wrap it all together: “I know I have to teach this, and it is not my favorite. Here is why. This is my favorite, and here is why.” It is an opportunity to add more to their repertoire.

Tim Bogatz: That is a good way of putting it. There is a balance in what you show and how you approach it. For example, I hate Minimalism. I think it is the worst. Someone lays some bricks in a line and calls it a sculpture, and that is fine, but I do not teach it that way.

I am happy to tell students, “This is not my favorite because of these reasons,” while still encouraging them to form their own opinions. I want to leave things open-ended enough that they can approach the work with an open mind.

There is no one I want to remove from the curriculum just because of my personal likes or dislikes. Everyone who is part of the story should get in front of students, and we should share that story with them.

That being said, I asked you to come up with a list of three artists you think are overrated and three artists you think are underrated—artists people need to know more about. Since I am a top-tier hater in my personal life, I would love to start with the overrated artists. Would you like me to go first, or would you like to share yours?

Jenn Russell: You can go first because I think we share one. We should dive in.

Tim Bogatz: The first artist I put on my most overrated list is Jeff Koons. Is he the one we share?

Jenn Russell: Agreed. Yes.

Tim Bogatz: Tell me why you dislike Jeff Koons so much.

Jenn Russell: In the year of my Lord and Savior, Beyoncé Giselle, it is difficult to teach Jeff Koons. My campus is one-to-one, so all of my students have devices. They can split their screens, take notes on one side, and Google on the other. They are very locked in and in tune.

When we get to Jeff Koons in the AP Art History curriculum, we have to talk about Pink Panther. First of all, there is kitsch, and I am a maximalist who loves kitsch. However, explaining Jane Mansfield, the Pink Panther, the proportions, and Koons’s ideas can lead students into a deep dive.

When they explore too much, Jeff Koons becomes a suspicious character. His name appears in places, and then you have to address that. It opens a lot of Pandora’s boxes just by mentioning him. Maybe we would not be in that boat if the curriculum featured Balloon Dog instead of Pink Panther. I think we could get away with it a little more, although he is still a suspicious character.

It is also visually difficult to dive into a bombshell sculpture that is so large for what it is. It is tough and yucky to explain.

Tim Bogatz: It brings up some uncomfortable conversations about his behavior that we may not want to have in the art room. I have never been impressed by his work. “Shiny” is not an aesthetic that appeals to me, and I do not vibe with the simplicity of the kitsch.

I have a tough time telling students why he is important and why people love his work. It does not make sense to them, either. He gets far more recognition than he needs or deserves, in my opinion.

My second overrated artist is Damien Hirst. For those unfamiliar, Damien Hirst is very good at putting animals into formaldehyde, placing them in a strange bluish-green liquid, putting them in a box, and saying, “This is my sculpture.”

At one point, that was probably young, hip, and cutting-edge, but I have always felt indifferent to his work. It is trying to shock me, but it does not work for me. I do not know why people love it so much.

One caveat: He did make a skull out of diamonds, and I will say that is awesome. I love that piece.

Jenn Russell: That was my introduction to Damien Hirst, and I was obsessed. I love shiny things. If I could walk around covered in glitter, I would. Then I went back and looked at his other work and thought, “I do not know if I like the back catalog.” The skull is about as cool as we can get.

Tim Bogatz: We could set the skull aside and say, “Great work on that piece,” and then not worry about the rest.

Who was number two on your list?

Jenn Russell: You mentioned being a top-tier hater. I am a Division I hater, and I have sometimes dubbed myself the captain of the hater team. It is time for an unpopular opinion: Mark Rothko.

I also need to give you some context. I am a Houston girl. I grew up in Houston, and the Rothko Chapel is at the Menil Collection. I could not wrap my brain around it.

This is why I understand why teachers do not like to take field trips. I was a rowdy seventeen-year-old who was supposed to be reverent in the Rothko Chapel. My teacher explained it to us, but then you are faced with a color story. If you have not developed your frontal lobe yet—and I had not—I was asking, “What are we doing? Why is this famous?”

That is difficult to explain to students, especially my particular students. In AP Art History, I tend to have the top ten students academically. They are not always art kids. They are very academic, left-brain, and inflexible.

They look at a Rothko and say, “This is literally just orange.” I say, “First of all, correct. But let me explain why.” I also stared at black canvases and was supposed to be moved. I was asking, “What is this?” Your teacher is trying to have a poignant moment, and you are thinking, “I do not get it.”

For as much hype as Rothko receives as a cornerstone of art history, I sometimes wonder why. You could easily look at Yves Klein, who created an entire color, and ask similar questions. I know you created it, but what are we doing?

Tim Bogatz: As soon as you said Rothko, it hurt my heart a little bit because I love Rothko. But hearing you explain it makes sense. If your first introduction happens when you are not ready for it, and then you try to teach it to students who are not ready for it, I can understand where you are coming from.

Jenn Russell: I appreciate Rothko a lot more now. I also use a pop culture connection. I tell students that Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce have a Rothko book on their bookshelf. It is obviously important, right? I have to sell it. That is our job as teachers—we have to sell a lot.

I appreciate Rothko much more now, but I still feel it is a little overrated personally. It is a hot take.

Tim Bogatz: It is a hot take, but you redeemed yourself quite well.

My third overrated artist is Carl Andre. Talking about Minimalists and people I do not like, Carl Andre is at the top of the list. He makes flat sculptures on the floor and talks about geometry, squares, and interacting with flat surfaces. But you just laid some tiles on the floor. It is tough for me to explain.

Then there is the salacious part: his relationship with Ana Mendieta and the circumstances surrounding her death. I could do a whole other podcast on that. She is one of my all-time favorite artists, so that makes me dislike him even more. This may be more of a personal vendetta than an artistic dislike, but it all rolls into one for me. Carl Andre is on any list I have of artists I think are overrated or do not love to teach.

Jenn Russell: It is funny that you mentioned murder because I am continuing with another hot take. This may not necessarily be an artist, but it is an extra or alternate pick. My original choice comes from the Renaissance and the idea of artistic mastery.

My students will deep-dive into anything. We might explain Caravaggio’s suspiciousness and his relationship to violence, and students will ask, “He casually killed two people, but he was an amazing painter, so anything goes?”

The AP Art History curriculum makes that difficult to explain. There are so many artists now who have been rediscovered and are using tenebrism or similar techniques. Caravaggio’s skill and the foundation he created have to be appreciated, but his choices and character are difficult for me. I would not necessarily say he is overrated in the sense of being overexposed, but perhaps he is over-praised.

Tim Bogatz: That is fair. I like that distinction.

Let’s shift gears to underrated artists—artists we love more than most people, or artists we want to share with people who need to know their names. I’ll have you go first for this list, Jenn. Who is number one on your underrated artist list?

Jenn Russell: I am really into a lot of nontraditional things. Painting is great; it is lovely and wonderful. But sometimes I get bored, and my students get bored, with just a painting or just a drawing. If you can mix media, I am always going to be more partial to it.

Hannah Frost is one artist I like to share when I am trying to broaden my students’ perspectives on what they can do as art students or artists. I often show them people I find on social media who work in fields they may not have considered, such as publishing or editorial magazines.

When students think about being an artist, they sometimes say, “I do not want to show my work in a gallery.” I tell them, “No, no, no. You can do so many things.” Hannah Höch’s mixed-media collage work uses photography and magazine clippings to make surreal worlds.

Her work also connects to setting up photo shoots, where the clothing may look like paper-doll cutouts. It is really cool, and we have recently made it part of our artist list when we look at mixed media and contemporary art. Hannah Frost is pretty great.

Tim Bogatz: I love it. Number one on my list is Alma Thomas. I feel like everybody knows Alma Thomas already, but I would ask people to take another look at her work.

It is vibrant and joyous. It is colorful, and I love all of her little brushstrokes. They almost look like mosaics. Most elementary art teachers are familiar with an Alma Thomas-style lesson, but I would appreciate it if everyone took another look because her use of color is so masterful.

Her work is happy. It brings me so much joy, and I really appreciate it.

Who is number two on your list?

Jenn Russell: Number two is Hank Willis Thomas.

Everything has to be relative to where your students are. I customize artists demographically to where my students are and try to find new—or at least more recent and contemporary—artists.

When I talk about Black History Month or the Harlem Renaissance, I say, “This is where this started, but there is more to explore.” The College Board may recognize one artist, which is fine, but I try to grow the list. It is the same when we cover Frida Kahlo. I say, “Yes, she is a staple, but look at all of these other artists, too.”

Hank Willis Thomas has a great contemporary voice. His work connects to issues facing communities, but it also brings attention to success. It is not always about struggle; it can also celebrate bodies, accomplishments, and where we have been.

His work is robust and adaptable. You can customize what you show based on whether you want to talk about current events, community issues, or another topic. He is a great example of how to address those ideas artistically without being too in-your-face. It can be direct, but it does not have to be.

Tim Bogatz: There is so much variety in his work, whether it is sculpture, painting, photography, or something else. There is also variety in how he approaches his ideas. Sometimes his work is very direct, and sometimes it is more subtle and withdrawn, so you need to think a little more.

There is so much depth to his work, and he addresses so many things in so many ways that it is easy to appreciate.

My second underrated artist is Ana Mendieta. We already talked about Carl Andre, and I need to say that Ana Mendieta is the person in that relationship who needs to be known. We can put Carl Andre aside and talk more about Ana Mendieta.

She did an incredible job of putting her silhouette into all sorts of places. Her Silueta Series is incredible. She made nature-related works and earthworks, and they are all ephemeral. They are temporary in some way.

Some works last six hours until the tide comes in and washes them away. Other works are temporary on the scale of decades. She might burn her silhouette into a tree, and eventually the bark will grow back over it, but that will take decades.

She did things in such interesting ways. I think more people should check her out, so I would love for everybody listening to look up Ana Mendieta if you are not familiar with her.

Jenn Russell: Agreed. I love earthworks and site-specific things that may or may not still be there by the time you arrive. There is something whimsical about that. How do you know it is there unless you photograph it to preserve it? If you do not photograph it, you still put your stamp somewhere.

I really appreciate that aspect of her work.

My third underrated artist is a little nontraditional. I have been focused for a few years now on showing students where art can take them. Students can get stuck thinking they are limited to a canvas, paper, or camera. I want them to break out of that box.

My class is in the spring, and we only have fourteen weeks before the exam, so we are moving a thousand miles an hour. The schedule also lines up nicely with the Met Gala, so we talk about the artistry of fashion and how it has influenced pop culture.

Fashion is an underrated industry for artists. My artist pick is designer Rahul Mishra, who is doing amazing work combining culture, design, and artistry.

Recent couture fashion has been very sculptural and large-scale. We can use the Met Gala as a real-world reference point. We look at artistic and fashion-related ideas, choose looks we would have wanted to see based on art history, and critique what actually appeared.

Rahul Mishra is an Indian designer, so when we look at temples, sculpture, and how the body moves through space, his collections look like sculptures. His work is a great way to connect art history with design and contemporary practice.

Tim Bogatz: I was not familiar with his work, so I looked him up when you said his name. I do not know a ton about fashion, but I love his work. It is sculptural, three-dimensional, and really beautiful.

Jenn Russell: A couple of collections ago, he created a Gustav Klimt-inspired collection. We loved it in class. The beadwork is incredible, and the three-dimensional elements surround you with what looks like a glittery version of The Kiss. It is an ode to Klimt, and he talks about that inspiration.

His social media work is also lovely because he explains his process. He talks about what he wanted to do, how he did it, and how the finished work came together. Students see that the work did not simply appear. It took thousands of hours and hundreds of people.

The process is important, especially because I try to give students real-world experiences and show them who is doing the work out there right now. Many of my students are from India or have family ties to India, so it is meaningful for them to see themselves represented. I want to see more of that.

Tim Bogatz: I love it. My third underrated artist is Joan Mitchell. I am not sure how well that will go over after the Rothko criticism, but I love Joan Mitchell’s work.

She made huge, colorful, abstract paintings, and I think they are wonderful. I wish we talked about her more. We spend far too much time on Rothko and Jackson Pollock when there are Lee Krasner, Joan Mitchell, Elaine de Kooning, and many other female artists who did wonderful things and are often ignored.

You can use Joan Mitchell as a stand-in for any of those Abstract Expressionist artists we should know more about. I wanted to get her name out there.

Jenn Russell: We talk about all of the women you mentioned. It gives students another option, boosts their knowledge, and provides scaffolding. They are not mentioned enough, and I am always saying, “Come on, y’all.”

I am also obsessed with the size and scale of Joan Mitchell’s work. This is different from a Rothko to me personally. She is different.

Tim Bogatz: Can I ask your opinion about Helen Frankenthaler? Thinking about huge size and scale and color field painting, she leans more toward Rothko. Where would you put her on the list?

Jenn Russell: I think there is more to look at with Frankenthaler. That is where my students get stuck with Rothko: They are looking at a black rectangle. I have had to learn to appreciate it, and now I can. I can explain that they are supposed to see layers and depth and that the work is meant to hold their attention.

Color field is a little easier to explain with Frankenthaler because there is physically more to look at. There is a field of colors—plural—and it engulfs you a little more.

Students might say, “I am just looking at this red and orange.” I say, “Look at the blend. Look at the bleed.” They look at me as if I am a hippie artist. That is one of the harder things to sell, so I think Frankenthaler is a little overhyped in that sense.

I do bring her up. We also talk about Yves Klein and his obsession with color, especially because it is our school color. I say, “What if?” Students say, “No, girl.” I say, “Do not worry about it. I’ve got you.”

I enjoy Frankenthaler much more, and she is highly underrated in my classroom.

Tim Bogatz: I am glad to hear that we are aligned on that one.

Jenn, we have talked for a long time about our favorite and least favorite artists, but I would love to wrap up with one question about teaching AP Art History. Knowing me, it may turn into three questions at once.

What are your favorite and least favorite parts of teaching art history, specifically AP Art History? What advice would you give somebody teaching it for the first time or someone who wants to improve? Can you give us an overview of what you love and share some things that have worked well for you?

Jenn Russell: I love the story aspect. AP Art History is literally human history. Once students get past the “art” part, they understand that it is human history. They still need to know what was happening in each time period, and then they can see how art was impacted by what was happening in the world—and vice versa.

Artists are record keepers. That is one of my favorite parts because it captures students’ attention. They understand that many images they have seen throughout history are actually paintings or other works of art.

I tell them, “All of those illustrations and paintings you have seen belong to an artist, so you have been exposed to art history from the beginning.” The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are even named after Renaissance masters. What more evidence do you need that art history is everywhere?

My least favorite part is explaining how students will have to explain themselves on the test. We can get carried away and really go in-depth, but at the end of the day, they have to adapt their opinions and knowledge to a rubric.

My suggestion is to use the resources provided through AP Classroom. I pick test questions from the AP question banks. I am not going to reinvent the wheel. If there is a question bank, I use questions from it, especially because that is how the questions will be formatted and worded on the exam.

I am trying to set my students up for success. The hardest part is the free-response questions. How do you get students writing about art history without saying, “Caravaggio killed two people, and that is not okay,” or, “What are we talking about with Jeff Koons?”

You need to help them talk about art academically in a way that fulfills the AP requirements. That is the most difficult part, but students get over it pretty quickly.

Tim Bogatz: There is a challenge because the hooks get students interested in the story. They remember those details, but those are not necessarily what the people grading the exam are looking for. Students have to make a shift and transition from the memorable story to the academic analysis.

Jenn, thank you so much for being a hater with me, sharing the artists we love, and sharing your advice for AP Art History. We appreciate all of it. It has been fun talking with you.

Jenn Russell: Of course. Thank you.

Tim Bogatz: Thank you.