The September Mailbag: Protecting Your Prep, Saying No Without Guilt, and Our Favorite Artists (Ep. 483)

Welcome to Art Ed Radio, the podcast for art teachers. This show is produced by The Art of Education, and I’m your host, Tim Bogatz.

All right, welcome everyone to the month of September. Welcome to the September mailbag. Amanda Heyn, as always, is with me. Amanda, how are you?

I’m great. How are you?

Also great. Also excited for all that comes with a new school year and all of the great questions that people are sending in. We have a lot of good stuff to cover today for sure.

Yes, we do. My kids just started school year at Benin in for a little bit.

Yeah, a couple weeks now. Three weeks now. Yeah, we start early.

So that’s wild.

It’s moving quickly and it’s my daughter’s senior year, so she’s very much up in her feelings about this is the last time I’m ever going to do this. This is the last time I’m ever going to do this, and I don’t want to break it to her that in 20 years you’re not going to remember these things, but that’s okay. We’ll let her appreciate and enjoy these things her last time through. But anyway, we’re off to a good start. Before we get to all those questions, what do we need to chat about? What’s on the housekeeping agenda?

Okay, so there’s a couple of things from the community. First is our PRO Pack Picks. Okay. So if you’re not in the Art of Ed community, you need to join community.theartofeducation.edu. Every week in August, we released something called a PRO Pack Picks. So if you’ve been curious about PRO Learning, we actually have some free stuff in there for you. So there are four free videos and some additional context and resources and things that were specifically picked to help you get ready for the school year. So if you haven’t checked those out yet, go ahead and go into the teacher’s lounge in the community and do that. Also in the community, our first birthday is coming up.

Oh, yes. That’s exciting.

The community is turning one. It’s a little baby, but it’s grown so much. We have over 7,300 members as of the time of this recording. So again, if you’re not there, what are you doing?

I was going to say, you are missing out.

You are missing out. Come join us. We are having a birthday party. Obviously, I like to throw a party and Jen loves to throw a party. So that is September 18th at 6:00 Central time. And this-

Do we have to RSVP for this party?

Yes, I was just going to tell you about that. I mean, you can just come, but if you RSVP, you can add it to your calendar. So in the community, we’ve also been doing some reorganizing, some revamping, some simplifying, some clarifying. They’re subtle changes, but I think they are making things even easier to navigate. So there is a new space called Upcoming Events that is in our Overview and Info section. So you can head there, you can find all of the events, you can RSVP to all of the events, and you can also find the replays and minutes from past events.

And at our birthday party, there are special sponsors and there are special prizes. We have Qual and Blick Art Materials coming and just some really great giveaways happening. So a little extra special event for a birthday party that you should not miss. It’d be great to see you.

Yeah, that’s awesome. And as we know, Amanda, you throw a great party. So I feel like this is going to be-

Really, it’s a passion.

Okay. Can I tell you what I am excited about?

Yes.

Okay. So we did a podcast not too long ago with Angela Matsuoka about all of the new ceramics resources and ceramics curricula that are in FLEX curriculum. So again, if you’re curious about FLEX, if you’re not a member of FLEX, those are things that definitely are worth your while. They put out three new collections, I think there’s 18 new ceramics lessons. They have wheel throwing, they have hand building with clay, they have glazing and surface design and 20 some resources that go along with it. Just a super, super thorough ceramics curriculum, which I think is really impressive and something that I think a lot of teachers need, a lot of teachers are missing. And so I think that’s going to be a really good one. And so anyway, if you want to find that podcast with Angela, definitely worthwhile to check that out. And she really goes in depth. So if you’re interested in ceramics and resources, that is the place to go. So that’ll be my share for things that people should check out.

Excellent.

Okay. Any good stories to share with us before we dive in? What’s been going on?

Well, I was in London. No big deal.

Sorry, just so casually like, “Oh, by the way, I was in London.”

By the way, I went to London for two weeks and while we were there, we got to have a lot of great art experiences. So we went to the Tate and we saw Do Ho Suh. If you don’t know him, we actually have a YouTube video about him, 5 Minutes of Art History.

Okay. That’s where I learned about him. And then you’re like, “Guess who I saw?” And so that was awesome.

I know. He’s so cool. He creates spaces, I guess I would say. It’s difficult to describe his work, but the one we saw was he made a crayon rubbing or a rubbing, it wasn’t a crayon, but a rubbing of his entire childhood home and then reconstructed in the gallery, and then also this mesh house where everything was made out of mesh and there was a mesh fire.

Fire extinguisher?

Thank you. I was like, “Not a fire hydrant.” A fire extinguisher. Anyway, the detail was incredible. It was so fun. And my kids were really into that because they love origami and paper craft, so that really kept them engaged, which was really fun.

Can I ask a question? Does it seem a little obsessive to you to do a rubbing of your entire household? That is wild to me.

I mean, to me, no. I was like, yes, this makes sense to my brain. I loved it. There was also a very cool video showing him doing the process, which again was really cool for my kids to see. So that was exciting. They were much less enthusiastic about the National Gallery because it’s just a lot of Renaissance stuff. But the Arnolfini Portrait was there.

Yes.

And that is my absolute favorite portrait from art history. I had no idea I was going to see it. I had no idea it was there.

That’s an incredible surprise then. That’s amazing.

Well, I should clarify. I didn’t know before we got to London, I knew before I got to the museum, so it’s not like I just walked around the corner because that would’ve been even an even better story. I should have just lied and said that was the story. But I got my kids excited about that. They were excited to see that one. And there was one of the versions of Leonardo da Vinci’s like Madonna and Child’s.

Yeah. On the rocks?

Yeah. So anyway, the kids were excited about that because they really loved da Vinci’s notebooks, and then they were like, “I’m over it.” So they went to the Lego store and I did a quick tour like hit Van Gogh’s Sunflowers, hit the self-portrait of Rembrandt.

Yeah, the museum highlights.

Yeah. Also, I think maybe some of Cézanne is okay. I’m coming back. I haven’t seen it in person in a while. And there were some where I was like, “Okay, these colors are pleasing, these textures are pleasing.” Not all of it, but I’m willing to say that it’s fine.

I feel like that’s progress. I feel like we’ve tempered the Cezanne hate and maybe-

I’m growing.

-I’ve accomplished something here.

Maybe I think the National Gallery accomplished it, but I did go see it to see if my opinion had changed.

I appreciate you being open-minded.

Yeah. Also, then when I got back, I just need to say I still hate the outdoors. I had a lot more poison ivy to pull out of my yard. I worked outside for a half an hour and I got 25 mosquito bites. And I just think that’s not a hyperbole. I think I’m ready for indoor season.

Okay. Okay. That’s fair.

What about you?

Can I just say that I’m loving the outdoors more than ever?

You can say it, but nobody will believe you.

I went camping a little over a week ago. It was fantastic. Just calm and peaceful, really needed that, really appreciated that.

But also so many bugs.

There were a significant amount of bugs in the evening, but that just gives me an excuse to go back to the tent early, get more sleep, which is another thing I need. So it worked out all right. And then we’re going to be camping again this weekend, so life is good for me. And also, we don’t need to dive into garden talk too much, but I will say that all of my milkweed, which is the host plant for butterflies, particularly monarchs, it’s doing its job. I was out there with my kids. We counted 23 monarch caterpillars out in my backyard.

Do you realize this is my worst nightmare to have 23 butterflies growing in my yard? No, thank you.

Okay. But I will say, I know you’re conflicted about this too. The cardinals that are around, again, if you remember a few months back, we had the cardinal nest in my backyard. Those are growing up. And I know you have conflicted feelings about cardinals.

I think I just have bad feelings about them.

That’s fair too. But anyway, one of the juvenile cardinals, teenage cardinals, I don’t know what the correct term is. He found a few of the caterpillars. And so I am just standing there doing dishes out the window and he lands on the fence right in front of me and just gobbles down one of the caterpillars. I was like, “Buddy.”

Well, now I do have really mixed feelings about all of the things that are going on.

I know. I know you have. But then I was a little upset with him, but I was like, “Oh, circle of life. It happens. Caterpillars are here to feed the birds.” Not even 30 seconds later, he is back with another one and he just plops it down on the fence, eats that too. And I was like, “I hope you’re full soon, my guy. Let’s be done with this.”

That’s really funny. At least he’s not flying into your windows.

Yeah, yeah. I mean there’s still time, but no, he’s been doing his job out there. It’s been good. And so I’m enjoying all the things that are happening in my garden.

You can enjoy the nature for me and then things will even out in the universe.

That sounds perfect. All right, are we ready to actually answer some questions?

I think so. Let’s go ahead and open up the mailbag.

All right. We want to begin with some discussions that have been happening in the community. As Amanda said, if you’re not in the community, what are you doing? 7,300 friends are there waiting for you, hop in. But our first question actually comes from our community manager, Jen. She left us a voicemail because she knows we love voicemails. And this was inspired by a community conversation that was happening. So let’s hear from Jen.

Okay, Amanda, how do you tell people to go away?

Oh my gosh, I love this question.

I always want to ask you first because you’re so much more professional about these than I am.

First of all, thanks, Jen, for leaving us a message that’s our favorite. Okay. Here’s how I handled this because when I was teaching, this was a real problem for me with a couple of key coworkers. So my solution was just don’t let them come in the first place. And I know that might seem antisocial, but you’re just protecting your time. So during my plan time, my door was shut. Now a lot of doors automatically lock, so I wouldn’t be mad about that. I would literally work in an area of my room that was not directly visible at the door.

Yes, five in the corner.

We are not making accidental eye contact. We are looking really busy. I actually had a little office. I was quite lucky with my room, so I would do all my prep work in there. Sorry, I’m not home. And then I would say if you can’t do that, I don’t know, maybe that doesn’t feel good to you to hide, but you could wear headphones or loop earplugs and just make a really big show of taking them out if someone tries to talk to you. I think also you can be direct.

It’s not mean to tell someone, “Hi, I’m attempting to use my prep time really wisely so I can stop bringing stuff home.” If they’re your friend, they’re going to understand that. You can say, “Can’t wait to catch up at happy hour,” or boss duty or before school or whatever other time you see them. But it’s okay to tell somebody directly value your friendship and I’m going to do this my prep time. Or in the moment if someone comes in, you can say, “I’d love to chat more, but I really need to keep moving on this task,” and then put your earplugs in and go back to working.

Yes, yes. No, I think that’s good. And I would say those are basically the exact things that I was thinking of, exact things I would do. If people are super persistent, then I will say, “Hey, come talk to me while I do this,” or “Come talk to me while I’m cutting paper. Come talk to me while I’m organizing these things,” which is maybe a little more of a balance, maybe a little more of a people pleaser thing to do instead of just saying, “Hi, go away.”

I didn’t say that.

You kind of did. Just like I said, you’re more polite, more professional than I am with those things. But yeah, I really love the answer of like, “Hey, I’d love to talk, but I need to get this done so I’m not taking work home.” And I think people always understand that. And honestly, you don’t need to feel bad about that. Doing something like that. It models professionalism, it models and those are the things that we need to be doing.

And so I think it is super easy to get sucked in and say, “Oh, I should just talk to these people so I can be social so I can be part of this group. So we can have a positive environment in the school.” But also at the same time, you need to take care of yourself. You need to get done what you need to get done. And yeah, it’s fun to be a part of that. And sometimes you feel like you have to be a part of that, but also that’s not worth staying till 5:30 because you wanted to talk. And so I think finding ways to either hide or just disengage, cut things short is the best way to go.

The other thing you could do is presumably if they’re coming to talk to you during your plan time, they also have free time. So maybe it’s like every other Friday we bring our tasks and we do them together or you know what I mean? Maybe there is a planned time so that they know that there is time set aside, but it’s not every day. It’s not on a whim.

I like it. I like it. Next question.

This one was from the community and the prompt was what’s one thing you wish you could manage more easily at work, at home, or anywhere in between? So things you wish you could manage more easily. Pam said, “I wish I could say no without feeling guilty about it.” And so I wanted to bring that to you, Amanda, I know you love talking about saying no.

And then Michael followed that up. He said, “I sometimes have no problem saying no, but then they come with a request that it’s so small that it seems mean to say no and I give in. But that’s like what scammers do and they say their card information if they buy something small to make sure it works and when it does, they go back for the expensive item.” It’s a great point, Michael.

Amanda, I would love your thoughts, but I would just say beforehand I think it’s important to set those boundaries. I think it’s important to say no. And I think that there’s maybe kind of an art to pushing back, an art to saying no. And like I said, I’ll let you take over with that, but I think it’s good to, whether it’s a principal or a colleague or anybody else coming in to ask you to do something, frame those asks in terms of contract hours or cost of supplies or opportunity cost. If your principal comes in like, “Oh, I need you to do these bulletin boards,” like, “Okay, what do you want me to put aside? Where are these supplies coming from? What am I going to be missing out on if I do these bulletin boards instead?” And just put that back on them and make them think about it a little more than just, “Oh, hey, the art teacher can do it.” Make them put a little more thought into it. But Amanda, what are your thoughts to any or all of that?

I have so many thoughts. Okay. We’ve all heard no is a complete sentence and this is the advice you often get. Just say no. But it is not easy to do and it’s rude actually.

Yeah, I was going to say you feel, and I would argue you are an incredibly rude if someone asks you to do something and you’re just like, “No.”

No.

That doesn’t-

But the sentiment is good, but the execution is not, right? I’ve never done that. I’ve never said no full stop. But I do say no all the time. And in fact, early in my days working at AOE, I literally got an award for it.

I remember that.

So okay, here’s how I like to think about it. If you are saying yes to something that somebody asks of you, you are actually saying no to something else that you want to do for yourself. So saying yes to a colleague asking to make a poster, you might be saying no to prepping materials that you actually need to teach or saying yes to taking on an entire homecoming float. Ask me how I know, I’m always not good at this.

Is this from experience?

It means you’re saying no to spending time with your family in the evening. And so when you think about it in terms of what you’re giving up in your personal life or your professional life, it becomes a lot easier to not feel guilty about it. You’re not saying no to someone else. You’re saying yes to yourself is maybe a good reframe and the world is insane right now. We are protecting our peace and we are not feeling bad about it. Okay? My other favorite tip is to pretend you are giving your best friend advice, but give it to yourself. So would you ever tell someone who you love and cherish that they should spend five hours making costumes for a play instead of doing their job?

Yeah.

No, you would be like, “Wow, that’s crazy. It’s so crazy someone asked you to do that.” Or imagine how absurd if a math teacher was approached and said like, “Hey, can you just do my taxes really quick? You seem like you’re good at math. Could you?” That’s so silly, right?

No, point taken, point taken.

So silly.

Okay, let me ask you this. If someone is not comfortable saying no, period.

Yes.

What is a better way to go about that?

I think you can just say, “Thanks so much for thinking of me. I don’t have capacity for that at this time, but I wish you the best as you work through it.” Right? That is professional and true. If you want to be extra nice, I think you could give a suggestion if you have it, right? That sounds like a great ask for the PTA or here’s a really good video tutorial that’s going to lead you through this process, or I like to buy those supplies at XYZ. There is a coupon if you go online. You can be helpful, but you don’t have to do it and you don’t have to be guilty and you never have to be guilty for aligning your time with your values.

Oh, I like that. Thank you. Okay, we just had a great comment from Michael about the scammers, but I also want to discuss a question that he posted in the community. I think this is a really good one.

He says, “I’m going into my fifth year and I’ve not ever repeated myself more than one or two assignments, but I was starting to think that some repeat assignments will help make planning all the grade levels easier. I like mixing it up, would also some tent poles to make things flow a little bit more. Any suggestions?” So let me ask you first, Amanda, are you somebody who likes to repeat lessons over and over or do you always do new things?

I would you to guess what.

I think you have a precise way of doing your particular lessons and they go in the same order for the same grades every single year.

That is 100% correct. Not that I don’t change things out or put a new spin on a project or maybe it’s a different subject matter, but yeah, I have a plan and I’m sticking to it and I love finding efficiencies in things. So actually repeating a project delights my brain because I’m like, “Okay, how can I do this better?” And that could also be like, “Okay, the kids weren’t really into this, we’re switching it up,” or “We’re switching materials,” or “We’re switching colors.” I wasn’t one of those teachers who made the curriculum and then absolutely never deviated from it. We did switch things up, but it was always sort of in relation to what we had just done and how to make it better. So anyway, as you might understand, I totally agree that some repeat projects are okay. I would assume that you, Tim, were the opposite.

I was definitely the opposite. I am very much aligned with Michael here where I’m always trying new things. I remember when we first started this podcast literally a decade ago, we had a curriculum episode and I talked about how 75, 80% of my projects were new every single year and people freaked out about that, “How do you do that? How do you do new stuff all the time?” Yeah, I don’t know. I have some thoughts on why that maybe is not the best approach, but I’ll get to those. But yeah, I will just say that I am definitely with Michael where I always try to do new things because that is fun. That is exciting for me.

So let’s go back to why you might want some tent poles as Michael said, which I like that analogy. Number one, it’s less stress for you. You don’t have to come up with new things all the time. It’s a little easier on your brain. It’s fun for families of multiple kids to see the different versions. There are a few projects my kids have repeated, certainly not all, but I have both of their clay owls and that’s so cute to me. It also can build excitement for younger students. Like, “Oh, when we get to fifth grade, we get to do XYZ.” Obviously, AOE’s FLEX curriculum could be great here. If you have a concept or a medium in mind, you could use the filters and search and see if any of those lessons spark your interest.

Such as the ceramics that I talked about earlier with all of the lessons and resources.

Amazing. If I remember right, Michael teaches upper elementary and middle school, again plugged to come to the community. We know each other. So I would maybe think about some touchstone assignments that would make your life easier. For me, those were things that took a lot of planning or specialty materials, excuse me, or resources where I knew, okay, I know exactly what I need to teach this lesson and I can just know what I need to do to prep for it. Obviously, you’re going to look for projects or mediums that your students have previously enjoyed. So for me, things that remained fairly constant were often my 3D cross-curricular projects because I knew the curriculum wasn’t changing and those were the projects that were much more involved for me. So for me personally, a couple of examples were like paper mache insects in kindergarten. That was a big project and I knew exactly how to prep for it, how many paper strips I needed, when I needed to mix the glue up.

And that was something that was difficult to figure out the first year. And then I was off and running for all the subsequent years. Also coil pots in second grade, what worked well, what didn’t, drying time, how do I get them through the kiln? That is a long project, especially if you’re only seeing them once a week. It has to be kind of down to a science. And so once I got that, it was really easily repeatable. And then we made these really cool sumi-e ink painting folded books that went with a fourth grade unit.

And again, multiple, we’re learning how to paint and we’re practicing and then we’re going to rice paper and we’re learning how to fold and we’re making book covers and we did printmaking on the book. It’s so involved and that’s something I couldn’t have just wung and come up with. And I think that’s another reason why it’s good to repeat projects because you can bring a level of expertise to them each year and you can go really in-depth and you can create some really cool multistep multidisciplinary things because you’re giving yourself more time to develop it I guess I would say.

Absolutely. That’s actually the point I was just going to make is think about the first time you teach a lesson, how good are you?

Right.

Probably not that good. But as you continue to repeat that, you refine your teaching, you refine your resources, you’re fine how all of these things happen and you get better. And I love, like I said, finding new projects. I love experimenting. I love trying new things. And Michael, if you’re the same way, you should continue to do that. But I think you should also find some things that you should repeat and you can think through all of these new things that you’ve tried that you’ve taught and say like, “Hey, what do I want to do again? What worked? What did the kids take away from these different things?”

And I think just reflecting on which lessons worked really well for you, which lessons worked really well for the kids, can maybe give you an idea of what those tent poles were or could be for you. And like you said, Amanda, with those really in-depth lessons, there’s so much you can do, but sometimes with big projects, maybe it’s not worth it. I love the phrases, the juice worth the squeeze and are you getting what you need out of that? And just thinking in that way about all of your projects will give you an idea of what you might want to repeat. And if there are things that spiral kids build on that knowledge from year to year, keep those things.

Those are incredibly helpful. Those are incredibly worthwhile. And like you said, Amanda, with the clay owls, if there are things that kids know like, “Oh, in fifth grade I get to do this,” or “In eighth grade, we have this lesson coming that can build some excitement,” that can build something for your families and your students to look forward to. That’s a great advocacy piece. And so there are a lot of reasons to find those lessons that you want to be your tent poles and build out from around there. So I would definitely encourage you to do that. And I would just say that repeating lessons, repeating things is not lazy. It’s not boring. If you do it right, it’s efficient, it’s good for you and it’s good for your students. So definitely an avenue that’s worth exploring.

Okay, our next question, this is from Robin. This is via email or no, sorry, this was in the community too. We’re not even to our emails yet, Amanda.

Oh my gosh.

So much going on.

Robin said, “I’m trying to do a gaming kind of scoreboard, like the teacher from your video, I believe this was Jon Hansen from his art teacher Cribs episode. He’s got this classroom achievement board where he tracks what students are doing. He is like gamifying his grading system and seeing how students are doing with grades plus participation, plus extra credit and whatever else. And it’s on a board up on his wall. He’s got the scoreboard a lot going into that. It looks pretty cool. He said his principal is very excited about it.” And anyway, Robin said, “I’m thinking to myself, how do I pull it off for fifth through eighth grade plus high school studio art without oversharing students grades? I really think this competitive additional fly and help bring engagement up for my naysayers.” Amanda, what do you think about the scoreboard?

Okay, I’m just going to be so honest. The scoreboard is probably not something I would do in my own classroom. And also when I watched Jon do it, I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is amazing.” And it just speaks to different teachers and different styles in different kids and so-

So many different ways to do things, so many different ways to be successful.

Yes, you could tell that he has done it in a way that his students absolutely love it and it’s working so well for him. And so Robin, you know your kids and if you think this is going to work for them, I think it’s absolutely worth trying. So if it were me though, I mean I hear Robin’s concern about the grade piece of it, which it would be one of my concerns as well. So I think I would just make it all about participation. I think I would make this run on participation, but you could still do that in a variety of ways. So for example, did the students do the assignment to the best of their ability? Great that they participated in the assignment, they get points, right?

It’s not saying this person got an A, and this person got a C, and the person with the A got more points. It’s just saying, “Did you bring your best here? Great. You can get some points for that. Did you draw in your sketchbook like you were supposed to during the bell ringer? You get points. Did you participate in a discussion or a critique? You get points. Are you doing a cleaning or organizing task? Above and beyond.” Maybe you can have a list of things for kids to choose from where they could get extra points on certain days for helping out in the art room. One other idea I had is maybe it’s mystery points. So maybe the kids don’t even know what you’re giving points out. They should know what is available. You might be looking-

What general behaviors would get your points, but maybe not specifically.

Yeah, Like this year, this semester or whatever, you can get points for coming in and completing the bell ringer, taking on an extra task of turning your work in. But we won’t know until it’s a points day what is being, I don’t know. It could be fun. I was thinking about the mystery supply thing that some teachers do where they think of one specific crayon on the floor and whichever kid happens to grab that crayon gets a prize, right? Something sort of similar.

Yeah, I feel like that’s actually a perfect transition into this gamification.

Yeah.

That’s good. Are you done? Sorry, I don’t want to interrupt you.

I had just one more thought is I would not try… She’s like, “How do I do this for fifth through 12th grade?” No, please, Robin, start small.

Start smaller, please.

I would start with one grade level or quite honestly, you could even do it with one class just to get a feel for what works for you. So do not start with eight full grades of kids is my last piece of advice.

No, that’s actually a great and important piece of advice there. So thank you. I think keeping it manageable is really going to be key when you first start out. Yeah, I would keep it lighthearted. I would also not do grades. When we did our Hot Takes podcast back in July, we talked about who grades participation and who doesn’t. And I feel like this could be a great balance where you’re grading what you should grading, but then this is a way to really acknowledge and reward participation.

And so I love all of your ideas there, Amanda, with critiques and bell work and just participating in discussions, all of those sorts of things. I think this is a great way to acknowledge that and get kids excited about doing that. My wife does a ton of gamification in her classroom. She’s a seventh grade history teacher and her biggest suggestion was to do this in teams rather than a bunch of individuals.

Well, I think that’s the part where I’m like, I would never do this because I could never keep it straight.

You’re tracking so many things.

Jon must have one of those minds that just has a web. I don’t know how he does it, but teams is so interesting.

If you could do tables or teams, it’s really easy to reward points to the purple table or to teams six or whatever. And then kids who are falling behind, a lot of times they will quit. They’ll give up on things like, “Oh, I’ll never catch up.” And so they stop participating, but if they’re part of a team, things are going to remain closer and they feel like they have a little bit more of a role. So I think that’s good. And then like we said, you really need to know your students. So Robin, this is up to you. I don’t think I would try this with high school. I don’t know my students that I teach, I don’t think they would go for this, but at the same time, I could be very wrong or I could be teaching different types of students like you never know. And so you got to think about whether this might work for you and start small, but I think it’s an idea that’s worth checking out.

Yeah.

Okay, now it’s time for emails. This first one is from Cody in Kansas.

Cody says, “I teach at a K-12 school in rural Kansas. This is my second year. I have a student who flat out refuses to do anything and we’ve been in school like three days total. She won’t participate, won’t make art, won’t move seats, won’t do anything. She’ll say things like, ‘You can’t make me do this and you can’t make me move.’ And I guess she’s right. I can’t make her do anything. How would you handle this? I don’t want to have this headache all year.”

This is really hard, right? This is really hard. Can I just jump in? Is that okay?

Please do.

Okay. I have a few questions that I would suggest that you try to get answers to upfront, which is she doing this in all of her classes or just yours? And is there some sort of IEP you haven’t seen? As the art teacher, sometimes four weeks into the school year you get something across your desk and you’re like, “Oh.”

This explains so much.

This would’ve been helpful for day one because this behavior could be related to something like anxiety or sensory avoidance or oppositional defiance disorder. There are things that could be contributing to this in a mental health way. Because if the answer to either of those questions is yes, then you automatically have someone else on your team in the case of a school counselor or a case manager or whatever. And if the answer to those questions is no, and she’s just doing it in your class, I still think you should talk to your school counselor or her other teachers or the principal, bring someone else in on your team because this is really tricky.

Yeah, 100% agree.

Because she’s right, you can’t make her do anything. I would also say all behavior is communication. So she is trying to tell you something, but we don’t necessarily know what or why. So I think if it were me until I could sort of meet with someone else in brainstorm and put some possible consequences or whatever in place, I would not push the issue. I would just let her sit and be bored and I would probably put something enticing near her to see if she would engage at all. Maybe it’s a piece of paper and some brand new quick sticks or a blob of modeling clay or some sort of other creative fidget, something tactile.

And I think this is the key. If she did start to engage, I would say nothing. We are not like, “Oh, I’m so happy, you did…” Absolutely nothing. We are being very cool. This is no big deal that she has decided to do something after days of sitting and doing nothing. And maybe that’s just me with my own kid who sometimes is not to this extent, but you just want to be cool and not make it a big deal if they are starting to come around. If she would talk to you, I would also ask her what is she into? What does she like? What would her dream project be? It’s just a signal that you’re on the same team and I would just be persistently calm and kind and if she does show interest in something, just trying to provide her with more of that again in sort of like a nonchalant way.

Yeah, I like that. And I’m actually going to go back to advice from the last question, say you know your students and what’s going to work here. But what I would do just in the moment, if she’s refusing to engage, refusing to do anything, I would just get on her level. I would either kneel down or sit down next to her and just say, “Hey, I don’t know exactly what’s going on, but doing nothing is not really an option in here. You need to do something if you’re going to be in here. So I’ll let you decide. You can either start working on this or you can head to the office.”

And then I never make them make that decision right then and just say, “Hey, I’ll be back in a couple minutes. You let me know what you want to do.” And then I can get up, walk around, talk to a couple of other kids, and then come back and again, sit down, kneel down and say, “Hey, do you want to get started with the specific thing or do you want to head down to the office?” And if we’re still sitting doing nothing and saying, “I’m not going to the office,” that’s when you call in or whatever needs to be done with your discipline plan at that point.

And like you said, Amanda, after the fact, you need to ask for support at whatever level you can find it. Whether that be parents, other teachers, coaches, if that kid does a sport, counselors, admin, who else? And just get some guidance on how to handle it moving forward, especially from admins like, “Hey, I think this is going to be a recurring issue with her refusing to do anything. How do you want me to handle it?”

Yeah. That’s a really good way to phrase it.

Go to your assistant principal or your principal. And just get guidance from them on what they want you to do and then you can follow that plan as needed. But then on a day-to-day basis, just like you said, Amanda, be calm, be cool about things. Continue to signal that you’re on the same team. Like,” Hey, I’m super excited you’re back today. Hey, it’s really good to see you. I’m really glad you’re in class today.” All those things like that can really go a long way and for some kids it’s going to take a lot longer to break through than others, but if you can be consistent and keep showing up, then I think you’re going to make some progress.

Okay, we have one final question now, Amanda, and this was maybe my favorite one, so I saved it till the end.

This is an email from Anne in Maryland and Anne said, “I heard you talk about how you don’t like Picasso, and Amanda, how she doesn’t Monet and doesn’t like Cezanne. Although we might be-

We might be.

-as of the beginning of this episode, we may have turned a corner on Cezanne. But anyway, Anne says, “So who do you like? Who are your favorite artists? Mine in no particular order are Morisot, Cassatt, Picasso, Rothko, and Frida Kahlo.” So that’s a good list.

Good list.

I like four of the five.

Yeah, I was going to say you do hate Picasso.

So Amanda, who are some of your favorites?

Okay. This is such a fun question.

I know. It’s great.

Okay. I love Kandinsky so much. I’m going to get so much S-word for this, but I really, truly honestly enjoy Cy Twombly so much.

Can I just get some scribbling noises over the top of the audio here?

Listen, I think it’s great. I find myself, if I ever see one in person, I just like that is what I’m drawn to. I can’t explain it. I’m not going to try to figure out why.

Wow.

I just like it.

Literally, it is shocking to me,

I think because it’s like, okay, well, maybe I will try. I think because it’s like there’s a playfulness, there’s an energy, there’s like, “What are you doing? How did this get here?” And I just really appreciate all of it.

And to be clear, I am not judging, but I’m really confused by it.

You can judge. That’s fine. Okay. A Kusama Infinity Room is on my bucket list. So much so that I am turning 40 this year and I did research, where can I go see one and should I do that for my birthday? It’s only-

It’s like an amazing birthday celebration.

I know. LA at the Broad, I think it’s called.

Okay.

I don’t really flying that much. I don’t know if I want to get on an airplane for four hours to go see an infinity room.

Also, when I was in LA last time, I tried to go and tickets were sold for months in advance, and your birthday is not that far away.

It’s almost here.

You probably need to stop recording and go check that out immediately if you think you may want to do that.

So anyway, okay. Another I think lesser known artist that everybody should know is Tony Oursler.

Oh, I love Tony Oursler. Yes.

Oh my gosh. Okay.

So creepy. So weird.

Yes. He projects faces on surfaces. He’s like a video installation artist. And there’s a piece at the Milwaukee Art Museum that’s so great is this tiny little head on this tiny little floppy doll under a yellow folding chair. It’s just talking nonsense and it’s so incredibly delightful and weird to me. I just love it.

Yes, I love his stuff. It’s like these little video characters and sometimes he’ll project different body parts from one eye, from one person, a different eye from another person, and then a mouth from a third person. And it’s so unsettling and so weird, but it’s fascinating.

And it’s so good. Okay, really quick, I know this is getting long. A Félix González-Torres, I’ve wax poetic about him before. So good. The way he plays with time or the human experience, very interesting.

Powerful stuff.

And then just like Olafur Eliasson and Ellsworth Kelly, just again, just make me happy. Just give me rainbow canvases. Yes. Could someone else do that? Yeah, I don’t care. I am happy that I’m seeing it. I just really like it.

That’s a good enough reason to love someone.

What about you?

Maya Lin is at the top of the list for me. I love everything she’s ever done. She’s the designer of the Vietnam War Memorial and a lot of incredible architecture and installations and some great great stuff. I have a hot take about her actually that I should save for a future Hot Takes episode. But love her work. I love Ana Mendieta great stuff. Just really challenging boundaries of time and artworks and her Silueta Series is spectacular. Love all of her stuff. I love Marcel Duchamp.

This one surprises me.

Yeah. Fair.

I know. I think he’s pretty creative. I think the way he thinks about art and the way he challenges viewers is really worthwhile, and I appreciate that. He was also a world-class chess player and I love playing chess, and so that drew me to him as well. But I really like a lot of his stuff and how he thinks about just the idea of art. I love Robert Longo and his giant graphite drawings, how realistic they are, how creative they are. They’re very, very fun. And then Kehinde Wiley is up there for me too. Love everything that he does both technique-wise, style-wise. And then his commentary on art history I think is super important and super interesting. So I think those are probably the top of my list.

I went to a Robert Longo exhibit last summer, I think, within the past year.

Yeah, you tell me about this. Yes.

I had never seen his work in person. It was so impressive and so cool. If you get a chance to see it, absolutely go.

Yes, for sure. His stuff is incredible. So anyway, if anybody else wants to share their favorite artist with us, either in the community or leaving us voicemail, I feel like a top five list is a good conversation starter for sure.

Yeah, 100%.

Love to hear what other people are thinking. All right, Amanda, I think we’re going to wrap it up there. So thank you so much. As always, I always love recording the mailbags with you.

Same. Thanks for having me, and we’ll see everybody at the community first birthday party on September 18th. Okay? Bye.

Sounds great. Bye. Thank you to Amanda for joining me. As always, the podcasts are a lot of fun to do. And thank you all for all of the amazing conversations, all of the amazing questions that you’re sending our way. We really appreciate it and really adds a lot to our discussions on this podcast. And as we wrap things up today, I think I just want to circle back to what’s at the heart of what we’ve talked about today, which is establishing those boundaries, finding the balance you need and finding the systems that are going to work for you.

Whether that involves shutting your door during plan time, or learning how to say no without feeling guilty about it, or just deciding which projects to repeat year after year and making your life easier in those ways. The throughline with all of that is that your time and your energy really matter, and protecting those things, protecting your time and your energy, that’s not selfish, that is essential if you want to be a good teacher, if you want to keep showing up for your students, for your colleagues, for yourself in your classroom, it’s vitally important that you do the things you need to do to make sure that you are at your best.

Art Ed Radio is produced by The Art of Education with audio engineering from Michael Crocker. Please be sure to subscribe so we can join you again. And if there’s somebody you know, a teacher you know who could use some of the advice in this podcast or one of the questions maybe applies to them, please send it along. Please share if you want to reach as many people as possible. And as always, if you love the show, please jump over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify, wherever you listen. Give us a five star rating and maybe even give us a review. Thank you as always for listening, and we’ll talk to you next week.