5 Green Flags to Look for in Job Interviews (Ep. 419)

Tim:

Welcome to Art Ed Radio, the podcast for art teachers. This show is produced by the Art of Education University, and I’m your host, Tim Bogatz.

Amanda Heyn is back with me again today, talking about one of her favorite topics–interviewing and hiring. We have a conversation today about job hunting and interviewing, looking at it through the lens of the important things to keep in mind from both a teacher perspective and an administrator perspective.

We wanted to ask the question . . . what are some of your green flags when it comes to job hunting, interviewing, or knowing that you are coming into a program that is respected and supported. So you will hear today our top 5 green flags when it comes to job hunting.

We also opened this up to the art teacher community, and you all came through on socials with some great ideas, we will incorporate a lot of those answers in each one of our green flags.

Throughout the conversation, I will be adding in some stats from the state of art education survey that we published in early 2024.

This is a survey that asks thousands of art teachers across the country about their program, their art shows, their budget, their curriculum, their PD, and so much more.

But we’ve been doing it since 2018, as it gives us great insight into the state of art education (hence the name) in any given year.

Admins, if you want to know how your school or district compares

Teachers, if you want to know how your situation compares . . . Check it out! We will link to it in the show notes.

But for now, let me bring on Amanda Heyn to join me for the green flag conversation.

Amanda Heyn is joining me now. Amanda, how are you?

Amanda:

I am great. I’m so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Tim:

Well, thank you for joining us. We have a lot of great stuff to talk about when it comes to job hunting and the green flags when job hunting or when going through the interview process. But I think to kind of set the table for this discussion, I think it’s important to bring up a couple of points when it comes to job interviews. And this is something that you love to talk about.

I know we’ve talked about it on previous podcasts, but, you know, administrators obviously want to put their best foot forward and find a teacher that fits their school.

Amanda:

I do know!

Tim:

And a lot of teachers think that they need to jump at every job that’s available, but we need to kind of maybe take a step back and realize that it’s important for teachers to make sure that the job is a fit for them as well.

Amanda:

Yes, I think you know rightfully so. Many people are so, so nervous about the interview process. That’s totally expected. It’s totally normal. um But like you said, I always like to remind people that it’s a two-way street. like Interviewing is a two-way street. Yes,  just like you said, the admin is trying to find the best fit for their school, but the teacher also needs to figure out if that school is the right fit for them. um You know, these days with teacher shortages and new arts funding initiatives passing in some some states like Proposition 28 in California and other places, um candidates do have more opportunities to really ask for what they need and seek out a really supportive environment.

Tim:

Mm hmm.

Amanda:

And so on both sides of the table, people need to be ready and willing to engage in some really important conversations to figure out if it’s going to work for both parties.

Tim:

Yeah, absolutely. And you know just going back to that idea of teachers needing to you know take whatever job is available, I don’t think that’s the case anymore. And like you and I, we talk in this job to administrators all over the country. And I’ve talked to more than a few who say that these job interviews have just turned into recruiting pitches, where rather than just you know figuring out the best of the eight candidates, they’re desperately wanting their one candidate to take the job, and so you know, the school tour is look how great this is. Look how awesome the staff is. And I’m going to I’m going to give the caveat that that is not the case everywhere.

Amanda:

hmm. Okay.

Tim:

You know, there’s probably a few people who are, you know, having a much different experience with their job hunt right now. But it goes back to the idea that, you know, both sides are looking for something. And when the admins and the the teachers can both connect, and find a  good fit, that’s kind of what we’re going for. And so part of this discussion today is to to figure out how to get everybody on the same page. So we’re going to go through our top five green flags when it comes to interviewing or or job hunting. So we’re going to throw in a few comments from the AOEU community, like I said, and we’re going to share some of our own thoughts as well. so on to our top five green flags  Number one is having a vision for the arts program Amanda. Would you like to read the first Facebook comment here?

Amanda:

Yeah, sure. This comes from Casey Clark, who said, ask the principal to share their vision for the role of the arts in their school. Are they more interested in the process or the product? Do they want in impressive displays in the hall? Or do they want their classroom teachers to have daily planning time? Or do they value art as a way to increase student engagement and confidence? So lots of great things there to discuss.

Tim:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Yes.

Tim:

All excellent points.

And I just wanted to add one.  This is from art you happy from Instagram.  Short and sweet, but important.  They said there needs to be an actual job description so you understand what the job entails. So Amanda reactions to to either of those or both of those.

Amanda:

Yeah, well, I think they’re both great answers.  I do want to say they suggest a really knowledgeable, involved administrator or administrative team, which is definitely something to look for.

I’m not sure that for either job I’m trying to figure out, did I have an actual job description? I’m sure I had something you know with my hours and contract days and things.

Tim:

Right.

Amanda:

But you absolutely make want to make sure that you have  in writing. like the following, even if it’s not in a specific. job description. So I would say contracted hours, obviously days you have to work, including in service and before and after the school year, which should probably be written into your contract.  But then other important things to think about, or if you’re an administrator listening, things to think about communicating with your candidates would be the amount of prep time per day and how it’s allotted. So it’s not enough for our teacher to know that they get 40 minutes a day because of that time is split into four 10 minute increments, that is an issue and not the same as if they have a dedicated planning period, right?

Tim:

Okay. Right. right.

Amanda:

Length of the lunch break, how many classes the teacher will be expected to teach you each week, how many students they will have in each class,  what duties they’ll be assigned to outside of their normal class load,  you know, what what kind of support they will have in the classroom. So if you are teaching in an integrated situation, what kind of support do you have for students who need that?

You know, I have known about schools where  students with special needs get  get assistance in math class and not in art class. And that’s a really big issue,  especially if you think about what kind of tools and materials and things go on in an art class.

Tim:

Right. and Yeah, that’s a great list, and I appreciate all the specifics as you were talking there.

Amanda:

So that would be something to ask about. And then the last one is whether or not the teacher would be receiving extra stipends or extra pay. for things outside of school hours and thinking of things like coaching or art club or other activities that you might want that person to become involved with.

Tim:

I was thinking all big picture, and so I’m glad that you really like nailed down exactly why what to talk about. But my thoughts, like I said, generally tend toward sort of the the overarching view of like what do administrators want their art program to be? like What do they want kids to learn? What value do they place on the arts? Like Casey said in her comment, like is the art program something that’s valued, something that uh everybody loves and participates in or is it something that just kind of exists to give classroom teachers the planning time that they need uh because that’s that’s a battle that a lot of elementary art teachers are fighting and you know if you’re at the secondary level think about what the expectations are for the program are you participating in a ton of art shows putting on art shows do you do art competitions

Amanda:

Yeah.

Tim:

Is there an art club, an art honor society, things like that. and Just figure out exactly what expectations there are for the program and kind of along those those same lines. But another aspect of it is what role the art program plays in the community. Like, that’s worth having a discussion about. Again, going back to the art shows, other interactions, other opportunities for kids to hang work in local businesses or participate in different events.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Tim:

Like, what is the art program doing or what, you know, is the art teacher expected to do when it comes to the community? And in return, how does the community support the program? Like, what is the PTO doing? Are there other volunteers that give donations What is attendance like at events? you know Is the art show a big deal? like All of those things kind of play into you know what role the the art program takes in both the school and the community. And again, I think trying to align everybody’s expectations is an important part of of what you’re doing during the interview process.

Amanda:

Yeah, for sure. I would add one additional caveat, which is maybe you’re a teacher and you are interviewing with a panel and they’re not sure exactly what they want for the art program. Maybe they’ve never had a strong program or the program is brand new.

Tim:

True.

Amanda:

I know in my  second teaching position, there had been an art teacher there who was wonderful, but he had been there for 30 years and things were kind of, you know, petering out in some some ways. And so  I was able to come in and share what my vision was. And they were really excited about that. So If that’s a situation you’re in, I would also look to see if the committee is open and excited about your ideas and your vision.

Tim:

Yeah, absolutely. I had a very similar experience where I was able to and to share my vision for the high school program when I moved there, and the interview committee was very receptive to that. So I think that’s a good piece of advice for teachers.  Know, going in, you know what you think you could do with the program, what you want the program to be, and be able to to speak to that in the interview.

Amanda:

No.

Tim:

So that’s great advice. Thank you. Green flag number two.  This is an engaged administration. So I will read the first one and then, Amanda, you can get the second one. Our first comment is from Amy Steishanki from Facebook. And she said, an administration that attends art shows, they honor the success of the students and they stop by the art room regularly because they’re truly interested in what the students are creating.

Amanda:

Yes. And then Don Kruger from Facebook also said they have encouraging words and questions for our students when they visit our classrooms. Also, they visit our classrooms, which is great. And I i think this is both of these comments are are great because I think as a teacher, you really should look for an administrator or an administrative team that feels like a collaborator.  someone who really will support you in enacting your ideas and who you can go to for advice,  someone who’s going to help you champion the art program and acknowledge your hard work and dedication.

So, I mean, yes, the principal is an authority figure, right? That is their job  to give to give feedback and to make teachers better, but they should really be invested in helping you improve versus being overly critical in my mind.

Tim:

Yeah, I would agree with all three of those. And actually, my thoughts kind of echo yours a little bit. I would say that, you know, engagement is always appreciated.  Visiting the classroom is is great. Personally, I’m very nervous about people visiting my classroom. Like, I hate having ex-people in there. And I know some other people feel that. But I think ah any administrator stopping by kind of especially if they are interested, if they’re engaged when they stop by. That gives a boost to the kids. You know, just a quick visit and a little bit of encouragement can do wonders to help the kids kind of boost them up, help their confidence and make them a little bit more excited about what they’re doing.

And so admins, we know you are incredibly busy, but even a short visit can can do wonders for the kids.

Amanda:

Okay.

Tim:

But I think it it kind of goes back to the idea of just a real general support  for what you were doing in the art room. And, you know, admins should be able to encourage you to be your best self when when you’re teaching. They should, you know,  support their program in front of the staff, in front of the community. And I think that’s an important question for teachers to ask in the interview, you know, ask their admins, what do they do to support? What do they do to promote their their teachers and their programs? And just make sure that you have a really engaged and supportive administration when you’re going through all of this.

Amanda:

Yeah, definitely.

Tim:

All right. Number three on our green flags is a quality art room. So we have three comments I’m going to read really quick  from lizardly wine on Instagram. i She says sinks and storage space with at least five exclamation points.

Tim:

So I like that. Erin Marie Raynard from Facebook says, if they’re open and excited to showing you the space.

And Tim Nelson on Facebook says, look at the space compared to other classrooms. The art room is massively outdated compared to the other classrooms. Chances are it’s not a priority.

Amanda:

Yes, I really like what Tim had to say about comparing the art room with other art rooms, because while everybody would love a big, beautiful room stacked with everything, we know the state of art education these days, or education in general, I should say, and we know that might not be a realistic find.

But I think a few things to look for is like, is the room comfortable, right? like and does it doesn’t get up to 125 degrees uh at the beginning of the year like i don’t know if you want to be in there right so is it comfortable is it functional  for example does it have sinks like generally you need water to teach art  a drying rack right like tables and chairs enough for the students.  And it should be safe. So like no one wants to teach art in a room that’s been clearly neglected.  I feel like I’ve heard about a lot of mice in art rooms. Like that is the health hazard.

Tim:

I’ve I’ve had mice before, yes.

Amanda:

Yeah, no one wants to teach in a moldy environment right like sometimes these classrooms are kind of wild so a peek at the art room and uh you know just kind of poking your nose in the space is going to give you for lack of a better term a vibe check and i think you should definitely listen to your gut when you when you are in that space and i also think like they said if they’re not excited to show you the space or if they will not show you the space then that is a red flag not a green flag.

Tim:

I was going to say that is a red flag. So yeah, I think that’s important. I would look at it this way. I would first  think about sort of the the lower end of the art room. Like what what’s your minimum viable art room? Like what can you get by with?

Amanda:

Yeah.

Tim:

And then at the other end of the spectrum, think about what is your dream art room look like and just realize that like you’re probably going to land somewhere in the middle. and and make sure that that you’re okay with that.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Tim:

But if it’s below like the minimum of what you would want to deal with, then you know that’s not a fit. And that’s something that you probably want to stay away from. But I think seeing the room is an important part of that, just because When we teach art, our space is very, very important to what we do and how we do it and we something that fits.

And I would say when you are looking through that too, just think about you know, like the aesthetics of what it looks like versus the fundamentals of like how it functions, because there are things that maybe don’t look great right now, but you could super quickly change, you know, just adding a little more color, adding some more decorations or hanging up some different artwork, you know, make the space a lot brighter and and a lot different.

But if, you know, you’re in a spot with no windows and, you know, no sinks, like you said, that’s that’s a problem. Like, you probably can’t change where the built-in cabinets are, or where the doorways are, or where you know your sinks might be located.

And those are things that you have to work around, and those are things that you probably want to think about a little bit more when you see that art room. So just kind of be able to envision what what you want that to be, figure out what the room looks like, and and just make sure it’s going to work for you.

All right, number four on our list for green flags is a decent budget. Now, notice we didn’t say a great budget. We didn’t say a huge budget because we know that’s probably not realistic,  but we we would like at least a decent budget to work with. So, Amanda:, can you read those comments?

Amanda:

Yeah, Shay Lichtenberg from Facebook said low supply budget per student ratio is a red flag. So flipping that a high supply budget per student ratio is a green flag.

And then seeshellyrun3 from Instagram said my own room and a generous budget supply. If not, then nope.

So these are the things they were looking for.

Tim:

I appreciate all the Instagram comments because they’re just straight to the point.

Amanda:

Right. I totally agree with this green flag.  You know, administrators, if you’re listening out there, I don’t think you’re generally making math teachers pay for math textbooks, right?  And so you absolutely should not be asking your art teachers to pay for the art supplies, which are the materials that they need to enact their classes.  And she is right like if you have to really look at your amount per student because $400 might seem like a lot of money if this is maybe one of your first jobs teaching art but that is not going to get you far if you are teaching 400 students.

And so it’s really important to do the math there or ask the school to do the math for you and  figure out exactly what you have allotted.  I think it also depends, something that plays into this equation is how much is already there.

Are you starting from scratch? Is there kind of a stockpile? There are, I have seen, well-stocked art rooms where they do lower the budget a little bit then because you kind of have a reserve to pull from.

But there are other places where you go in and there is no paper for the first day of school unless you order it. And so understanding that bigger picture is very important.

Tim:

Yeah.

Amanda:

If you were to be in an interview and the school responds that they don’t have a dedicated art budget,  then I would ask and follow up.  by understanding how the art program is funded. Because again, we do not want you opening your wallet. So is the pt is the PTO involved? Are there generous donations from an outside source? Some schools will put  supplies for the art room on the back to school list supplies. So like every child has to bring a pack of markers that go directly to the art room.  So essentially, again, there needs to be a solid plan that doesn’t involve you using your personal savings to buy art supplies.

Tim:

Yeah. If I can jump in real quick, there are a lot of places that expect art programs to fund themselves via fundraiser or art show where they’re selling works.

So that’s another one to to ask about because, again, that goes back to expectations for the program. And if you’re expected to do fund your program through it and via art show, like you need to know that going in.

Amanda:

Right. A hundred percent. And you need to think about like, is that work that you’re willing to put in? Because, you know, I’ve been in that situation fundraising and that takes a lot of time. Uh, that is not necessarily then going into planning my curriculum.

And the last thing I guess I would say about this is remember that most of the supplies you’re going to be using are consumable. right, they need to be repurchased year after year. And the less time a teacher has to worry about how to obtain the supplies that they need, the stronger the art program is going to be because they’re going to be able to dedicate that time to  teaching practices and curriculum and things that really will make a big difference.

Tim:

Yeah. And I would say I just wanted to add, like going back to the state of art ed survey that I mentioned in the introduction, 40% of teachers have $3 or less per student, which again, like that that is not a lot, but it is the the reality of of what’s going on.

Again, if you have 400 students, that’s $1,200. I mean, you can get some decent stuff with that, but it still can be a little bit of a stretch.

We just need to make sure that everybody’s on the same page. you know And when you ask about that, administrators should have a clear answer. Like Amanda said, they should have a solid plan for for how that art room is is funded. you know that if they answer, you know, oh, we’ll we’ll get you what you need. Don’t worry about it. That, in my experience, rarely translates into you actually getting what you need.  So just make sure that that there is a specific plan, a clear plan for how the art program is funded and what you have to work with there.

Amanda:

Yeah.

I would add just one more thing before we move on to our last and final flag, which is, cause you said something that sparked this idea, which was like, you have to be on the same page.

Tim:

Yeah.

Amanda:

So if you are an art teacher and you are all about recycled art and you only want to make stuff with cardboard and you want to, you know, like if that is a passion area of yours, like maybe it doesn’t, maybe you don’t need as big of a budget as someone else. Right, but again, that alignment is so important or under truly understanding what you’re getting yourself into with both funding and supplies.

It is just something you really really need to nail  down in the interview process.

Tim:

Yeah, absolutely. All right, green flag number five, supportive colleagues. I will take the first comment here. Amanda will give you the the second, too. Colleen McGrath Sherry from Facebook says, gauge how the interview panel responds to your responses or questions if they are not along to your answers and interested in what you have to say. That is probably a green flag.

Amanda:

Mm hmm. Liv and Deeks from Instagram said your interview includes people from the art department.

Tim:

Mm hmm.

Amanda:

Yes, love. And Kellis Bobellis from Instagram said, I always try to get a hold of someone I know from that district or school for insight.

Tim:

Oh, I like that. i I think it’s it’s good if you know somebody there to kind of get a lay of the land of, you know, how people are feeling about teaching at that school or in that district.

Amanda:

Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, it’s kind of like a reverse reference check, right?

Tim:

Oh. That’s good.

Amanda:

It’s like the if the admin is going to call your references like, why don’t you call their references, right?

Tim:

Yeah, yeah.

Amanda:

Who would be the people that already work for them or already attend in that school district?  Although I will say, I don’t think you need absolutely everyone to be your cheerleader right away. That can be amazing.

Tim:

No.

Amanda:

But if you have you know your principal and a few key staff, like you can do a lot to bring people on board.  In my first school I taught at, teachers were not super into the art program, but literally while I was hanging the first display in the hallway, I had three people stop me and be like, oh my gosh, like this is really impressive.

They were like, something good is happening here, right? and so  When you sort of get your artwork out into the school community for the first time, you can build from a base, I guess I would say.  So immediate support if you can get it, wonderful. But second best would be sort of genuine enthusiasm about what the art program could be and how important it is to foster sort of excellence in the arts.

Tim:

Yeah, absolutely. And this is tough for me to say as somebody who’s introverted, but, you know, put yourself out there to like visit other teachers classrooms, like make yourself part of the the school community. Like there are probably some get togethers. There are probably other things that that you can to do to, you know, get to know your colleagues a little bit more outside of the the school day. And I would encourage you to do that because in you know, the more you like the people you work with, the better the situation is at work. And so if you have the opportunity to do that, I would definitely do that.

And just going back to that State of Art Ed survey again, like two thirds of teachers of art teachers are the only art teacher at their school. And so a lot of times you are needing the the support of people outside of the art program.

So, you know, look for for colleagues in all different areas that that you can work with, that you can hang with, that you can get support from, you know, not just who’s in the art department. And I think, like you said, if you work on building those relationships, that support will come. But  like you said, if you have a few champions in the district or in the school for you already, then that is a a major green flag. 

Amanda:

Yeah, I also really like the the idea of having an art person in the interview process, or if you’re at elementary, maybe another specialist like music, right? Because it shows that the admin values those people’s voices, which is really good.

Tim:

Yes. Yes, for sure. All right, now, Amanda, to close it out,  advice you want to share for any administrators who are listening to this, who are wanting to attract the best teachers or or wanting those teachers to to stay at their schools?

Amanda:

Yeah, absolutely. I think the biggest takeaway is don’t treat the art teacher different than the language arts teacher or the social studies teacher or the math teacher or the science teacher write in the terms in terms of the support that you are giving or the attention that you are giving.  Your art teachers are really invaluable. Art is the place where students are plugging into those really important 21st century skills day in and day out.  You know, like many jobs that these students are going to have have not been invented yet, right? 

Like we don’t know what they’re going to be doing and so this foundation of creativity and critical thinking and collaboration that they learn in the art room is going to serve them and  not only in the job market right but like just to make them a better and more well-rounded human.

It’s a really special privilege and challenge to teach such a large percentage of the school population as an art teacher and our teachers have real distinct needs and they would really love for you to partner with them to create the best art program possible.

Tim:

It’s very well said and I want to hone in on the idea of having distinct needs because, you know, in talking to teachers all over, as we always do, and looking at the data we’ve collected from the State of Art Ed Survey,  it really comes down what I’m seeing  are three things that teachers are really finding challenging.  Finding enough time to do everything that they are asked to do, a  finding support with behavior management, and a lack of support  from the art program. And so I think you know if you can help alleviate those things for your teachers, then then that can be huge. you know Any kind of support that you can give with any of that is going to be great, you know, finding a budget for them, finding time for them to do what they need to do, I being able to support the program, finding specific professional development for your art teachers. You know, showing them that they are a valued and important member of your staff can go a long ways. Giving them the supports they need to to do their job can can be huge. And I think it goes back to what you said, Amanda, about not treating art differently. Just make sure that you know teachers are are pulled in to be part of that staff. They feel part of the staff. They feel part of the school. 

And if you can give them those things and again work together, collaborate to to make the program the best it can be, then I think we’re all going to be in a great place. So I think we will go ahead and wrap it up there. So Amanda, thank you so much for this conversation. I feel like it’s a good one and hopefully it will help both teachers and administrators as they’re trying to get aligned here.

Amanda:

Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Tim:

Thank you to Amanda for coming on.

Admins, ask your art teachers which of those things would be most helpful for them–the NOW Conference for an amazing day of online learning? Flex curriculum, with lessons and resources for everything you need to teach? Or PRO Learning for on-demand PD that is not only specific to art teachers, but really, really good PD? Any of those things can be helpful, and as we always do with our show notes, we will make it easy for you to find links, resources, and other ways to explore everything that we’ve talked about today.

Please share this episode with someone who could use it, whether that’s someone looking for a job or an administrator who is looking for a new art teacher. Or maybe just some ways to better support their art teachers!

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