Lisa Frank: Glitter, Greed, and Art Room Nostalgia (Ep. 455)

All right. I have Abby Schukei and Amanda Hine joining me. Abby, how are you?

Doing well. I’m just sitting in my rainbow glory right now. I’m ready to go.

All right. Amanda, how are you?

I’m great. I would like to point out that Abby and I dressed for the occasion, and Timothy Bogatz is wearing all black.

Again, as we all get into in the pod, I’m not as big of a Lisa Frank fan, not as big of a rainbow fan, so I feel like it’s appropriate, to be honest.

I feel like you didn’t try very hard, but okay.

Both things can be true.

It’s a both/and situation.

Okay. So in the intro to the podcast, of gave a rundown of the documentary, but I also said that I was hoping that you two would both educate me on what it would be like growing up as a Lisa Frank fan, because this was not part of my experience. This was not my thing. So I asked my wife like, “Hey, did you love Lisa Frank?” She’s like, “Oh my God, yes.” And I asked what it was like. And she said, “Well, there was one store at the mall that just had all the Lisa Frank stuff and you walked in there and it was magical.” She used the word magical. She said, “As a girl in elementary school, it was everything that you could possibly want.” So Amanda, I’ll ask you first, does that vibe with your experience?

Yes. Definitely. I was a child who had rainbow unicorn sheets, also orca whale sheets. There was nothing I loved more than rainbows and unicorns. Lisa Frank, to this day, if I look at one of those folders, my brain just lights up in a way that it does not for any other thing.

Instant dopamine.

Instant dopamine. So good. The dolphins were my favorite because … I think I’ve said this on the pod before. Every other elementary aged girl, I wanted to be a marine biologist. That seemed like a very attainable career-

Absolutely.

Path for me. So anything with a dolphin was my favorite. I also loved the orca. In this documentary I learned the orcas name was Max, which is the name of my personal child, one of them. And I just felt like a real full circle moment like maybe I had been subliminally getting messages or something. But anyway, I had the Trapper Keeper, I had the folders, I had the pencils. It was a great time in my life.

I love it. I love it. Abby, same for you. Did you have the Trapper Keepers? Did you have the folders, the stationery? What was it for you?

Yeah. So I wasn’t really a Trapper Keeper girly because that’s too much organization. I was the crumpled backpack kid. But yes. I still have some of the folders that are at my parents’ house from-

Those are probably worth a million dollars.

Probably. But they’re worn and used. But I was a big stationery stan. I know this is a podcast, but I am showing a … This is a vintage. It’s the bear that has Hollywood, but a stationery card set that I still have, and I use it sparingly.

Oh my gosh.

But growing up I … Did you all have pen pals? Real pen pals?

Oh, I had pen pals. Yes.

We were forced to have pen pals at school.

Yeah. You would do it at school.

I don’t think I would’ve chosen the pen pal life, but the pen pal life was chosen for me.

Yeah. Well then sometimes pen pals would go beyond school a little bit. Maybe you actually really liked your pen pal. And I exclusively would only write my pen pals with Lisa Frank stationery. And I still have this small collection of it that I use very sparingly because I’m like, this could be it. And you go online to see what people are selling it as, and it’s like, that’s insane, because I’m not about to spend hundreds of dollars on 10 note cards or whatever. But then also, I loved the fuzzy posters.

Yes.

I remember just sitting on the floor. We had lap boards, and I would just color that and color it. I just loved it.

I forgot about the fuzzy posters. Oh my gosh.

I had no idea about the fuzzy posters. This is completely new to me.

They were flocked.

Like velour.

Yeah. Like velvet. Like black and then the white spaces you would color in.

Okay. I remember those. I do not remember Lisa Frank ones specifically. So again, I’m missing out. No. I appreciate y’all sharing those with me. So I guess follow up question for that, did the Lisa Frank artwork or the style ever make its way into your classroom while you’re teaching? Did we pass that point? Is it too old for kids? Or is there a modern equivalent to something similar now? Abby, can I have you answer that one first?

Yeah. I think it’s something that I’ve never talked about ever in my classroom before, specifically Lisa Frank. I actually did ask some of my students just the other day if they knew who she was, and they all were like, “Excuse me. What?” I also have a student teacher right now who’s in her early 20s and I asked, I was like, “Do you know Lisa Frank?” And she was like, “Kind of. Not really.” So it’s definitely something that’s not part of their pop culture at all. But I think there’s probably some artists that maybe give a similar vibe in some ways, just in the color and the pattern and the things like that that we are bringing into the classroom. I would definitely say even some of the modern pop artists, if you will, who are using more symbols, hearts, smiley faces, that type of thing. Even the Romero Brittos of the world give some of the same type of feeling in some ways, just not quite whales and unicorns and dolphins.

Okay. Fair. Fair. So Amanda, what about you?

Yeah. I didn’t teach about it, but my sensibilities of liking that style definitely made me do projects about rainbows. I taught elementary. There were a lot of rainbow projects. I also love glitter, and I’m not afraid to say it. We used glitter in the art room, and I feel like … I don’t know. It’s connected in some way. I would also say Jen Stark is probably an equivalent of just sensory color overload.

Right. Right.

When you look at a Lisa Frank poster, yes, it’s a dolphin, but it’s so much more than a dolphin. I feel almost as though Lisa Frank is what AI creates these days. But before AI existed. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. I do.

If you were like give me a dolphin, it would be like this crazy cartoon rainbow dolphin. Or maybe that’s because AI is using-

It’s trained on Lisa Frank.I trained only.

I just had a really random thought. I don’t know if you are all familiar with the band called Rainbow Kitten Surprise, but-

I am not. I feel like I need to look them up now down.

I’m writing it down.

You would think there’d be a ton of rainbows, but there’s not. And their music doesn’t sound like that. But wow, Rainbow Kitten Surprise. That would’ve been a missed opportunity for a Lisa Frank collab for them.

Oh my gosh.

Well, there’s still time as we’ll discover.

Yeah. Absolutely. No. I love all of that. No, and Jen Stark was one artist I thought of, and Takashi Murakami was another artist I thought, I see some similarities there when I was thinking about that. Okay. So let’s talk about the documentary. I would love to know just … I don’t know. In a sentence or two, just what you thought of it and what you felt about it after you’re done watching. Because I didn’t really have any expectations going in I guess. I didn’t know what was coming. I didn’t have an attachment to Lisa Frank or the work. I want to step back. I’ll add my thoughts. But Amanda, can you tell us your emotions as you were watching, and then your feelings as you got done with all of the episodes?

Yeah. Long sigh. In one sentence. This documentary left me feeling dead inside. It was wild how bad it was. The outside was so amazing and bright and … Like we said, it’s magical, it’s wonderful. And the inside was just full of awful toxic happenings. Are Lisa and James … They’re modern tortured artists, but instead of cutting their ears off, they’re just not letting people eat dinner. I don’t know. It was wild. I felt bad after I was done.

I will agree with that. I’ll talk about that in a second. Abby, what did you think? Going through it what were your emotions when you were done? How were you feeling or what were you thinking about it?

Well, I don’t know. First going into it, I thought like, oh, are they twisting this in some way that Lisa Frank is going to come out good. And then it just kept getting worse. So it was just like, ugh. And honestly, this is the feeling that I had. So if there’s any children listening right now, spoiler alert.

We have a trigger warning.

Yeah. Trigger warning. Going to give you 10 seconds or whatever. Okay. This is how it made me feel. It made me feel like when I found out that Santa Claus was not real. It was just like … And then there was this sense of sadness and grief in some ways where it’s like, well, I have all this nostalgia connected to it all, but then it’s like, well, should I like it? It just left a bad taste.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s like when you find out all of the artists from art history were terrible people, and you’re like, do I have to stop going to museums or what should I do?

Well, and I don’t know. For me, it started out interesting. It started out pretty fascinating actually, with just interviewing all the people, how things started up. I thought that was great. I thought the directors did a great job of color coding the interviews. Did you all notice that?

Same. Yes.

Oh, yes. Yes.

Beautiful. They’d go into somebody’s house and be like, “Oh, they have an orange wall. We need to go buy them an orange shirt to wear for the interview.” So visually, it’s beautiful. It started out fascinating.

I think it took me the second episode to figure that out.

Okay. Okay.

For some reason. But that was awesome.

No. Once you realize that, you’re like, this is amazing. But then I just felt like it just beats you down over the course of the four episodes. Here’s more toxicity, here’s more misogyny, here’s more narcissism, and it is the worst. And by the end of episode four, I’m thinking like, “Cool. Let’s wrap this up. Maybe there’s a high note to go out on. Maybe there’s some redeeming qualities to share.” And there’s nothing.

No.

No one has any redeeming qualities. No part of the story makes you feel good. You just get done with it and you’re just like … I felt so sad at the end of it. It was just a sad four episodes to watch.

So I never did the follow-up on this. Obviously there’s an impending lawsuit happening.

Of course there is.

I’m assuming they talked about the makeup people, the glamour pop. Is that trial still ongoing? I have no idea when this documentary was filmed.

It came out not that long ago so it was filmed recently. I think they did the follow-up at the end where they flash the sober white letters on the black screen. And I think it said that a court dismissed-

And it’s going to trial.

Yeah. Okay. But then it’s still going to trial. Okay. I don’t know. My guess is it hasn’t happened yet, but we could fact check that.

All right. I will get on the fact checking because I do not have an answer for you either. And if I find something, I will put an update in the show notes for everyone. So we’ll leave that there. Okay. Now, I asked you both to do a little bit of homework. I wanted you to write down your top three moments in the documentary where just your jaw dropped or you’re just like, wow, and not necessarily in a good way. So Abby, I would love for you to start. What were your top three moments?

Okay. So first thing they talked about Lisa Frank being such this private person. There’s not very many pictures of her or whatever, but then they just magically have a home video.

I was going to say all kinds of home videos about her.

Of her wedding. And I don’t know, I think she got married in 1994. But her wedding dress was so cool.

I was going to say that was a good, wow actually. That wedding dress was a good wow.

I know. That was the only good wow of the whole thing. But I was like, it was cool. So to paint a picture of it was very ’90s strapless type of dress, but then it had these rosette flowers that are in rainbow color all across. And then she had a hat on.

Yeah. The hat. The wedding hat.

Yes. It reminded me of the Lindsay Lohan Parent Trap scene where the mom’s trying on hats with the veils for the photo shoot so it was very much like that. But it also had rainbow flowers around it. And I was like, that is awesome. Okay. So I lied. There are two wow things that I actually liked about it. Here’s the second one. Obviously her kids have probably some big trauma that they’re dealing with, but I loved that they named them Forrest and Hunter Green.

I know.

Forrest Green and Hunter Green.

It’s Amazing.

So good. I wish that they would’ve had more kids just so-

Jade. Maybe they would have a little girl, Jade.

A girl is definitely going to be Kelly.

Oh yeah, Kelly.

That could have been awesome.

Possibilities are endless.

I’ll bring the positivity here with the two wows. But then other than that, my last takeaway was when they were interviewing all of these former employees and they were talking about how some of them were like, “We seriously had PTSD from working here.” They talked about even that guy that died at work. He had a heart attack.

He had a heart attack, and they just kept going like nothing had happened.

They just carried him out.

Oh my God.

And then everyone went back to work.

But him calling that … One of the employees called it rainbow traumatic art disorder. And I was like, that is so real. That must be so real for them. And then you see some of them who were living their dreams as artists in some ways and illustrators, and now they’re like, “Oh, I don’t ever want to work for someone.” They ruined art for them.

That one guy was making his construction company’s Christmas card for his joyful outlet. And I was like, oh no.

Yeah. Well, just one of my overwhelming feelings, one of those things that I just kept repeating while I was watching is like, oh, this person needs to go to therapy. And the two sons especially, they have a lot to work through, but I feel like almost every person who worked there, they interviewed, you need some sessions with the therapist. It would really be helpful. On that note, Amanda, top three times for you that made you just go, wow.

Yes. I forgot about that.

And I was like, oh my gosh, fun. And then I was like, oh my gosh. Can you imagine the type of teacher she would be? But then they said she would put smiley faces on your work if she liked it. And I was like, “Oh, is that a teaching thing?” I don’t know. It was just like, that was fascinating to me.

Yeah. They were never clear if she actually finished to go there or not. Because they talked about how she was still in college when she got her first sticker deal or whatever. So I also really wondered about that. But then I was also like, she probably would’ve been the … Thank goodness she didn’t become a teacher because she would traumatize so many kids. So many.

Very true.

Okay. So that was my first, okay. The second time my jaw dropped was there’s James is her-

Her husband.

He said on the intro her ex-husband. And he has a tattoo. Well, first of all, he was like, “I don’t have a temper. I don’t have a temper. Hey, nobody say I have a temper.” And then he has a giant tattoo that says, “Blame James.”

Yes. Yes.

And I was like, ugh, what a narcissist. It’s a huge tattoo on his arm. It’s so weird. That is the weirdest tattoo I have ever seen.

He’s just taking being a professional victim to the next level.

Yeah. Permanently.

Here’s the thing. Here’s the thing. Towards the end you were like, okay, James, isn’t that bad.

Disagree.

I think James is that bad. I just think-

Disagree strongly.

There are some parts of it though … But Lisa Frank was so bad that he seemed good.

I think he still seemed bad.

I was just going to say all three of my wow moments are all about James. So that tells you where I’m coming from on this.

Okay.

Do not love him. But Amanda, what was your third?

Okay. My third thing was they were interviewing her son, Hunter, and he was talking about how his mom was so selfish. She was at work all the time. She never had any time for her family. And then he was like, “And my dad was working so hard.” And blah, blah, blah. And the interviewer said, “Why do you feel that your mom’s work made her selfish, but your dad’s work made him ambitious?” And I had to pause the documentary because I was like, this is every working mom. Both of them were terrible. That aside, the fact that their kiddo was like, “My mom was horrible for working and my dad was awesome for working,” just really made me stop in my tracks. I thought it was a really poignant point that the interviewer made.

And it was really interesting too, that Hunter had talked about how he felt like his mom liked … Well, first he never called her mom.

No. We only called her Lisa.

But he talked about how Forrest was the favorite. Which he wasn’t. So there’s obviously an interesting dynamic between that. And then it’s like I have a lot of questions for Forrest. Didn’t hear from-

Me too. Where’s Forrest?

I want to hear from Forrest. I want to hear from Lisa. There’s so many unresolved questions. Yeah. I’m with you. Okay. So Amanda, you covered two of my top three moments. James literally yelling at the camera about how he does not have a temper. That was amazing. His tattoo was the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen. And then him saying … I think it’s the beginning of episode two, he’s like, “Well, I am the documentary. I am Lisa Frank.” Just the levels of narcissism with this guy are incredible.

Did anybody ever follow up and look at … He was saying that he … Did he own a bar or a restaurant, but then he sold artwork and t-shirts and stuff. Did anybody follow up and look at them?

Yes.

I did not. Did you?

I did. I did. Same. Not very rainbow element. I think if you just type his name. I found it through his Instagram page, James Green something. But I don’t remember what it was listed as. He had the animals in there, unicorns and stuff like that. But they weren’t quite so rainbow-y. Had that animal feel to them. Some of them were very interesting. Maybe it was the merchandise it was on, I’m not sure. But definitely go check it out.

I’m very intrigued and I will just say, we’ll add this to the show notes as well. Okay. I honestly cannot in good faith tell people to watch this because I felt so terrible after I was done with all four episodes. I don’t know if you all agree. But I do want you to answer this question for me. You should watch this series, you should watch this documentary if blank. Okay. So Abby, for people out there, you should watch this series if what?

You want to ruin all the nostalgia and joy of your childhood.

Okay. Great. Amanda, your message for listeners. You should watch this show if?

You’re in the mood to feel sad and weird inside.

That’s fair.

Or you watched literally every other show in the world and you still need more television.

Okay. That’s fair. So I was just going to say, you should watch it if you’re a Lisa Frank hater, which I don’t think there’s a lot of haters out there. That was the perspective I was coming from. Not a hater, but just didn’t love her. But even then, if you hate her it becomes too much. There’s just too much toxicity all throughout. It’s a tough watch for sure. I don’t know. I would love to hear from people if they have other perspectives. If they really love this, then I think that would be great. But honestly, they said glitter and greed and there’s all of the greed, but not nearly enough glitter, in my opinion.

Agree.

I don’t think they showed it once.

Well, yeah, they did. In the intro when the ceramic unicorn breaks and then the glitter shoots everywhere.

Okay. Yeah. In an ominous way.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, with the music. Yeah. It’s interesting. Okay, so I guess I would love to, if you all don’t mind, just circle back and end on a little bit of a better note because I don’t love the nostalgia here that leaves you with a bad taste in your mouth. So I would love for you to share another memory from art class or from elementary school that really makes you happy, you really love or something you look back on fondly. So Amanda, would you be willing to share something?

Yes. Okay. I’m going to talk about my first grade school picture because I feel like there’s a connection. Because in my first grade school picture outfit, I had a unicorn cardigan with unicorn buttons and it was purple teal and white. And then I had my bangs. I was really inspired by The Little Mermaid, and for some reason, my mother let me use hairspray as a seven-year-old. And so I would wave my bangs like Ariel, and then I would spray them so much that they would flap up in a chunk in the wind. And that photo has been lost to time.

Oh, that’s so unfortunate.

We cannot find it. I know. But it’s burned into my memory forever. And if they made a grown-up version of that sweater, I would absolutely wear it today. It just makes me so happy every time I think about it.

No. That’s fair. Abby, what about you?

Yeah. I was always the kid in … I obviously loved art class always. But any contest, any contest … It was those poster contests that we get sent in the mail. I just throw them away now. But I was the kid who did all of those things. I loved it so much. And then I would always win and sometimes you’d win money because maybe people weren’t doing it. And then even just the pride of my artwork often got chosen to go to the art show all the time, and then you’d go to the art show and there’s just nothing more fun than showing up and being like, “Oh my gosh. How did I do?” And then you saw a ribbon. But this is a link Lisa Frank tie-in, which is actually wild now that I think about it. But there was a specific time that I remember. It was at a summer church festival and there was an art contest and I had entered into it and I was in kindergarten. And I entered into it. My drawing won. And the prize was a Lisa Frank teddy bear. A rainbow one.

Oh my gosh.

I loved that thing. And then it became like I would draw it and just all of the colors. But that is a moment that I will never forget. And now I’m like, wow. I’m still going to tie that to good memories though, because it was pretty awesome.

That’s what it should be. We should be tying these things to good memories. So I’m glad that you can get past the toxicity of the documentary and still keep your good memories.

What if you pushed a button on the bear and it was like, “You suck,” in Lisa’s voice?

Or just James yelling.

Get back to work.

Or just James yelling.

I could see that. That would be good.

Tim, what about you?

I was just going to say I have one that’s similar to Abby’s. I actually did not have art class in elementary school. Our classroom teachers had to teach us art.

Whoa. What?

Yeah. Once upon a time though, a muralist came in to our school and she was going to paint hot air balloons on the multi-purpose room wall. And so she did a whole lesson with us and we designed hot air to be painted up there. And my design got chosen, so I was one of the nine hot air balloons then. Last time I was at the elementary school, it’s still up there. That’s my 35 years later. So it was very cool. That was one of my great art memories from elementary school.

I love it. I wish you had a picture of it. Do you have a picture of it?

I don’t. I should go back and find it and take a picture.

Totally. Totally. That’s what you need to do.

Tim:

Thank you to Abby and Amanda for coming on. If you want to dive into the documentary, I will link to Glitter and Greed in the show notes. I will also link to a Jezebel.com article from about a decade ago that served as kind of an expose on Lisa Frank, Inc., and tells the same story as the documentary. We are also discussing all of this over on the Art of Ed Community, and we would love to hear your thoughts on Lisa Frank, nostalgic art supplies, great memories from art class, or anything else! Come join us there!

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