The Psychology of Creativity (Ep. 375)

Welcome to Art Ed Radio, the podcast for art teachers. This show is produced by The Art of Education University, and I’m your host, Tim Bogatz.

I am excited to welcome back an old friend to the podcast today. Andrea Slusarski is here to talk about all things creativity. I first met Slu back in probably 2013, and we collaborated on a few cool things inside and outside of AOEU. And she’s been on the podcast quite a few times, but it has been a minute since her last appearance.

But we were both at NAEA in San Antonio a couple of months ago. We got the chance to catch up and she was kind enough to agree to come back on the podcast and actually record some of the awesome discussions that we were having on creativity. This is probably going to be a long episode, so I want to just go ahead and get started. Let’s do it. Let me bring on Slu right now.

Right. Andrea Slusarski is back on the show. Slu, welcome back. How are you?

Hi. I’m excited to be back. It’s been a while.

Yeah, it has been a long while, but I’m super excited that you’re here again. Can you just, I guess, give us an update on what you’re doing, what you’re teaching, just what you’re focused on right now?

Yeah. I’m super stoked. I’m really fortunate, I have lots of really cool things going on. I’m currently an assistant professor of art education at Rocky Mountain College of Art and Design here in Denver, still in Colorado. I’m focusing on creativity and why that’s so critical for not just learning in the classroom, but also in building intrinsic motivation for lifelong learning in everyone. It’s kind of like my grand evil plan as an art teacher. It’s like, how can I get more people stoked on their creative selves?

Love it.

And my evil hands. I’m digging in more specifically with that when it comes to connecting with your creative self through visual journaling practices and flow state psychology. I get to really get into that meta level of teaching with my undergraduates as an assistant professor. So, I’m really excited to be sharing my experiences as a high school teacher, my experiences as an artist, and kind of helping set up the next generation of art teachers, which sounds so weird to say because I’m-

No, it’s a great way to think about it though. That’s incredible.

Because I’m starting to get a few gray hairs, I guess.

Well, correct, because I have all of the gray hairs, and you know what? I’ve just come to accept it. It’s fine.

I’m getting there. And most recently, I gave a presentation with my colleagues on the NAEA’s professional learning through research group that I’m on, which is super cool. I gave that on visual journaling for art teachers more specifically, at the Springs National Conference, which is where I ran into you, and we were like, “We need to talk. I have a lot of thoughts.”

Right. Because, yeah, we just got into a little conversation, a little reunion, which was fun, and then all of a sudden that turned into, “We have to do a podcast together.” And I’m super excited that we’re able to do that. So, it’s good.

So, let’s talk about creativity. I guess I’ll just start with, I don’t know, just a big question to set the stage. So, just thinking about how you wrap your mind around this, like how do you personally conceptualize or define creativity? And then second part would be, how is your conceptualization, how is that different from what your students are thinking, or what your students think of it?

Yeah. This is a cool question, and when I was reflecting on it, it made me think of this example and exercise I have my fresh art ed babies go through in my … So, I teach the psychology of creativity, which is like, I went into professorship like, “This is where I want to focus. This is where I think I can make the most impact with art teachers.” And so I, personally … And I share this with students, like this is day one, they’re in the School of Slu, is that I think of creativity a lot like pizza.

Okay.

Yeah. Here we go, Tim. You ready? So both terms, pizza and creativity, are similar in that we don’t have one universal definition. So, I want you to imagine your favorite slice of pizza, and keep that in your brain because I’m going to ask you at the end.

Okay. Okay.

Okay? And this is what I have students do. I have all my art ed undergraduates in the classroom, or even online in a discussion board, and I’m like, “Imagine your favorite slice of pizza.” And from that we come to a general consensus that we all followed a general formula. In our head, we all have a crust, a sauce, a topping. That means that we’re talking about pizza, while also kind of taking note that each person’s favorite pizza is most likely going to be impacted by their own experiences and cultures.

Right. Right.

Right? Like my favorite piece of pizza I can only get in the Midwest where I’m from, and it’s a breakfast pizza at a gas station. That’s weird to my students here in Colorado.

Well, being from Omaha, let me just say, I don’t know, are we talking Casey’s gas station pizza, by the way?

It is like such an example of pure creative acts that I can’t even.

I love it.

I dream about it.

Yeah. I don’t know if I would say it’s my favorite, but being from Omaha, right in the middle of the country, I’m well acquainted with Casey’s gas station pizza, and it’s freaking delicious. It’s so good.

It’s so good. And creative works can be defined a lot like that too.

Yeah.

And so this is where I take students through this thought experiment. They’re all laughing at me about my Casey’s pizza. They’re all still holding their pizza in their head. And I’m like, so we can look at a huge psychologist in studying creativity, Dean Keith Simonton from the University of California. He writes that creativity is originality times usefulness. So, if we had a pizza sauce topping equation, is it original, and is it useful? That’s creative. Okay?

Right.

And then defining creativity, and where I like to conceptualize and where I like to think of creativity is here it becomes a myriad of possibilities, and we have personal experiences, histories, cultures, and present day combined with various disciplines to be the ultimate combinations of toppings to your creative pizza. It’s exponential.

Right. Yeah.

So if we only experienced one slice of pizza, how boring would that be?

Yes. Yes.

Right? And defining and studying creativity is important because it allows us that language knowledge to learn about it so that we can discover our unique recipes. And I find that a majority of my students, they fall into a common misconception about creativity, that it equals just their art skills, and their art alone, and that if they’re not selling oil paintings in a gallery, that they’re not creative. And I just kind of come along and I’m like, “Let’s reflect on a better way, because …” And then they share their favorite pizzas, and we notice that everyone’s is different.

Right.

And I don’t have to like your favorite pizza, Tim. Right? And that’s what’s so amazing about it and such a bigger way to embrace creativity for me, because as an art teacher, there could be 40 humans in that classroom that are all going to have their own slice of pizza.

Right. Right.

So, what’s your favorite pizza? What’s your top?

Oh. All right. I’m going a deep dish pizza, Chicago-style deep dish with just a lot of meat on it. It’s really savory. That’s going to be my favorite, I think.

It’s sacrilege for me to say, being from Chicagoland, but I think Detroit-style pizza is-

Wow. Wow. Okay. Okay.

It’s the hill I’ll die on.

Yeah. I mean, I don’t know. I’m a little shook hearing that from you, but again, it goes back, that’s a good lesson for me on accepting other people’s modes of creativity and where they’re coming from. So I think that’s good. That’s quite the extended analogy. We just talked about it for like eight minutes, but I think it’s a really good analogy. I think it works really well, and that’s a good way to explain all of that to students.

So let me ask you this though. So as kids are coming to understand creativity, when they first come to the School of Slu, I believe you called it, what are they struggling with the most when it comes to creativity? What do you think is holding them back?

It’s definitely that way of thinking that I shared, that it’s like I have to be this professional artist to even call myself creative. That is where I really focus my teaching and my whole design of my course at, because it’s important for me to help my students kind of get into their inner self of themselves as a creative, like what’s their creative process? What do they do? What do they need? So that they could better apply that outside as an art teacher, so they can have a better language to talk about it.

And one of my favorite conceptualizations of creativity to dive into is from Kaufman and Beghetto. I’m not always positive if I pronounce those right, so I apologize. But they break down creativity into a quadrant, and that’s super helpful for my students to get this like, “Oh.” And so what those four kind of things are, and I’ll walk you through … I told you I have so much to share, Tim.

Excited about this. Like, I’m on the edge of my seat waiting to hear about this quadrant here.

I see you, I think see a visual journal, and I’m really excited. Because you know me, I’m like, taking your notes.

Yeah.

So they break down creativity into four levels, and they are little C and big C, which I’ll describe first. Those ones came first.

Okay.

It’s been updated with mini C and pro C, which are also helpful ways of thinking of creativity, because what they essentially do is remind us of where we are and the skill level that’s needed for each level of creativity.

And so then I define it and I start with my favorite, and that’s little C, and that’s the other hill I’m going to die on, is that you need more little C in your life. These are everyday creative acts, and they are not limited to visual works. Everyone can access creativity here, and the more little Cs, the better. And remember, it needs to be original and useful. So if you’re the mom making lunches for your kids in the morning and you’re like drawing a little goofy face on the banana, that’s a little C moment that’s really important. Right?

Right.

And so for teachers, I think this is why I love the little C because when you’re teaching and you’re in the school year, you may not have time for extended times drawing or extended times doing bigger creative acts, but you can be aware of those little C that you’re kind of doing throughout your day.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Because the contrast is big C, and these are the names we’re going to remember. They’re Beyonce, they’re Georgia O’Keeffe, they’re Steven Spielberg, Tina Fey, they’re Taylor Swift, which I could do a whole podcast with you, if you want, on how Taylor Swift is the most creative thing that’s happened to our world, and many other people that you can recall based on their creative pursuits, but I like distinguishing little C and big C because we often compare ourselves to big C people. And big C is also the culmination of their entire body of work. Beyonce does little C acts. Beyonce can’t … Like Taylor Swift is doing little C acts in her writing of songs. She doesn’t just wake up and make an album.

Right. Right.

But if we only think of creativity as big C, that’s hard to attain. And then the other two categories, they distinguish further levels of creativity. So pro C is creatives who’ve reached a professional level, and I like sharing this with students too, because this comes from years of experience and training, and pro C people could have really happy lives and careers and never be big C people. And that’s okay. That’s totally fine. And then for art teachers, and I especially think of parents here, mini C is this really special level of creativity. It’s not always a little C because what’s different about mini C is that it’s just really important to the creator.

Just like things you’re doing for yourself?

Things you’re doing maybe for the first time.

Okay.

Right? For all the kindergartner art teachers out there, have you ever seen a student lose their mind with a new art media?

Right.

That’s mini C. Someone taking their first steps, someone taking their first words. Those are original and appropriate. There’s places for all sorts of creativity and expanding our language about it by knowing that there’s different buckets for it to go.

You can just be more intentional about it, I feel. And it’s really easy to then like, after you’ve broken that down, you’ve shared research, right? I’m not just saying like, “Think of it this way.” No. Psychology researched this. Let’s learn from these studies. When you’re just starting to learn, comparing yourself to big C is just silly.

Yeah, no, that makes sense. So, actually, let me ask you this, because I feel like our students are doing that all the time. Like, “I’m never going to be as creative as this,” or, “There’s no way I can get to that level.”

So I’m thinking like, how do we help students get past those blocks? How can we help them see all of the different types of creativity that are out there, the little Cs, the mini Cs, the things that they’re doing every day? How do we help them see those, appreciate those, and find what works for them?

Permission, and then design. And so going big first, like I’m going to go big in an idea here and get a little wild. Permission is what we really need. As a human, you are creative. Journaling, reflecting, discussing, doing what you need to do to figure out what makes your creative light beam, that’s a lifelong process, and that’s going to change. Right? And so, however, as an art teacher, I do think we have some skills to help equip our students for that type of learning, and that’s why I’m just always so stoked on art ed, is that through design, through understanding these big ideas that art can help us understand, we can help our students, or at least I try to help my students get through these roadblocks through backwards design.

I’m constantly asking myself, “How can I design creative connections here?” And I feel like I’ve been talking about this with you for like eight years. I love tricking my students, like when they don’t realize that the whole class period has gone by because they were so involved in the exercise.

That’s designed. And I love being like, “Oh, I didn’t know that was going to happen.” It’s fun for students. Right? And then so how that looks for me is I call them creative exercises. I think, “What do I want students to be thinking about here?” Or, “How could I design visual journaling habits that can help my students reflect or find those connections?”

I use discussions and reflection prompts to get them deeper on their thinking and connection making. I think it’s important to have a little structure. For example, my instructions for my online assignments are organized by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi’s phases of creativity.

Yeah.

Right? It’s step one is prepare, step two is incubate, insight, evaluation, elaboration. And then what’s really funny is it’s not until week six that they actually learn about those. So my students are doing those steps every week, and then we get to week six, and they have a light bulb where they’re like-

I was going to say, does it dawn on them? They’re like, “Oh, this is what we’ve been doing the whole time.”

And it’s like my favorite thing when a student’s like, “Did you know the assignment steps are the phases of creativity?” And I’m like, “Oh, how did that happen?” But then there’s also, this is where being intentional and really being thoughtful here is hard because then you have to also allow little choice and openness.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like I have one foot in structure and one foot in punk. For example, this last spring, I had a student … I have framework. I have steps for their creative response. I want them to create something. I want them to design something that shows me their definition of creativity, honestly because I got tired of reading papers about it. I was like, “Make an art, make something, show me.” And I had a student compose an audio response of them playing their instrument with some recordings they took on a walk with an Alan Watts quote they were inspired by.

Okay.

Right? The structure was they had to give me one quote from one [inaudible 00:22:30].

Yeah. Yeah.

And boy, did they blow my mind. But that’s what’s always kind of hard with these creative roadblocks is because, I don’t know, creativity’s hard, and you never want to limit a student, so you have to just be really intentional as an art teacher, and providing the structure that’s needed for them to achieve creative thinking, but also stepping out of the way and being like, “This is on you.”

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay. So I want to ask you about something, because I’m just thinking about, I guess, the intersection between creativity and art. You talked about all the different ways that we can be creative, and I’m just thinking about whether or not that translates into the artwork that they’re creating.

So I guess after we see students finding their way creatively, they’re discovering their talents or activating their creativity, how can we help them transfer that or translate that into their artwork? And I guess too the question is, should we help them transfer or translate that into their artwork, or do you think the other creative pursuits should stay separate from art making and we just let that creativity stand on its own? Does that all make sense? I don’t know. It’s a big question.

It is a big question, and I feel like I’ve already reflected on a bigger answer for you. So I hope everyone is like … This is a point in my class when I’d be like, “Buckle your helmet.”

Right.

But because, wow, it is really deep, and my gut instinct is to respond with the hard shell, soft shell taco question. Porque no las dos?

Right.

I find myself answering that, like I go back to that, like what is that? A 1998 commercial?

Right.

Remember that? Porque no las dos?

You obviously like your food analogies. It’s good.

And I think that’s a first and example that I would say of like, how do you show students that it’s not just art? I am so intentional with my analogies and I’m so intentional with my examples that in my Psychology of Creativity course, 10% of the examples of creatives I share are actually visual artists.

Okay.

I go out of my way to invite teachers to come talk to us about creativity. Chefs, musicians. I had a friend who came and talked to us about structure, and they’re a UI/UX designer. Right? So, show students that people are using creativity bigger, because I think what you asked me is an and answer. It’s a yes and a yes.

That your students’ talents and hobbies or interests are exactly what they should be exploring and expressing, and this is where flow state psychology has been just so key in my teaching career, because even as like … When I myself was an undergraduate, some of my first flow experiences were not in art making.

Okay.

They were riding my snowboard, and they were when I was drawing in my sketchbook at home. And flow state, just to clarify, because it’s used a lot. It’s a big old buzzword, and I love that it is, because we can all get there, but there’s an asterisks with flow state that I always share with students. You have to have a matched skill level with the match challenge to get there, and so sometimes you’re not going to … Flow isn’t just this magical thing that I can just sparkle on you. It takes falling on your snowboard a lot, right? But it’s this state of mind in which we all, all people, can feel and become fully immersed in an activity, and that’s my classroom, quote, unquote, “management.” No one’s goofing around when they’re having fun and flowing because the exercise is like … Like I said, I’m tricking them. And so when you help connect those similar feelings outside of the classroom, like your question of, “Do we pull these other things?” You’re helping your students see themselves as creatives.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And art making, and this is another example because another way you can experience flow for people that are like, “I’ve never experienced that.” Well, have you ever been driving and then been like, “Whoa”?

Right.

“Oh, I don’t remember the last half hour. Ooh.” Right? That’s flow, essentially. It’s just not the glamorous version.

Fair. Yeah. Yeah.

It’s just your skillsets of driving and probably the challenge of you driving that specific road. You kind of got immersed in that activity. But art making is my vehicle to flow. And that’s how I think that I can feel my most creative self, is when I can tap into that flow feeling.

And so I offer art making as an art teacher as exactly that. It’s a vehicle for you to try out. But ideally, I want you to connect it to your own experiences with creativity, because I am never going to play basketball as great as Michael Jordan, but I can still learn a couple of things and still have fun playing the game. Just like you may not ever feel super confident in your watercolor painting abilities. Your favorite example, Tim.

Yeah, absolutely.

But that doesn’t mean that you can’t have a little C experience. It doesn’t mean that it doesn’t teach you about what you want to pursue in your lifelong learning. And you may be just like, “You know what? I’m not a great watercolor painter, but I really did love learning about color theory because I love putting my outfits together.” And so to your question of, should other pursuits stay separate from art making and let creative pursuits stand on their own? I just think it comes to just being intentional that art does not equal creativity, because drawing is difficult.

True.

And if it is difficult for you, that doesn’t automatically take your human creative card away. Right? And if we’re not purposeful or intentional with our language or our approaches or our classroom design as art teachers, we could unintentionally build that limiting belief.

Yeah, that’s true. That’s a really good point and something that we need to be conscientious of, and yeah. Okay. Sorry, you’re giving me a lot to think about here, so this is good. This is good.

And that’s where I like sports analogies too with students, and that was always a good way for me, and now I’m thinking of my high school students. The beginning of drawing is also really boring.

It is. Yeah.

And people want to jump right into playing the game. But when you talk about it with someone, by high school, there’s students in your classroom that have been playing a sport for almost 10 years. That’s more in their learning psychology than drawing is, at this moment.

For sure. Yeah.

And so if you can kind of share like, “Well, I think you’re super creative. I watched you play soccer last night. And when you started playing soccer in third grade, were you as good as you are now?”

Yeah.

“Did you feel flow in fourth grade, fifth grade?” And they’re like, “Oh, no, Miss.” And I’m like, “That’s kind of where you’re at in drawing right now.” And that helps students. Then they can show up and then they don’t have to have so much of a fear of a failure.

Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Great example.

Okay, one last question for you as we wrap this up. Obviously we’re very deep into conversation here, and I guess my question is, how do we help our students, and maybe even parents, how do we help them understand this conversation? How can we help them identify creativity, and how can we help them work toward being more creative?

Yeah. Well, this I think is where I’m really trying with my undergraduates, just to give them a good start in their teaching careers, because I think it starts with you. How are you modeling creativity in your classroom and your daily actions? Think about your language, I think, is important. Think about your examples that you’re putting in front of students. Is there someone not in visual art that you could show?

And then I also think about showcasing process, showcasing not the final polished version, and then talk about creativity, and create opportunities for fun and engagement with your community, invite them in that, “Hey, in our art room, everyone’s creative. Let’s show you.”

And then my last kind of thing is that I like to give people something deeper to think about. I don’t know if that makes sense. And like, how can you be the creative leader? For example, I wish I had a nickel for any time a parent was like, “Well, I can’t draw. My kid must be-”

Yeah, yeah.

“… crappy in class.” And I’m like, “Ugh, God, you’re ripping my art teacher heart out and stomping it in front of me.”

Right, right.

But what if your response wasn’t just like, “Uh …” Because that’s what I used to be. I’m like 24 and I’m like, “Uh, weird thing to say to me, I don’t know.” But what if it kind of was just like, “You know, we’re trying to stop that way of thinking in art,” or, “We do way more than just draw, realistically.”

Yep. That was always my go-to response is like, “Art class is about way more than just drawing.”

Yeah. And it can just be simple and sweet and leave everyone with something to noodle on about art, which I don’t think is always a bad thing.

Yeah, for sure.

And you know, you have permission to do that. You have permission from Slu. You can be like, “Slu said I can.”

No, that’s awesome. I’ll take the permission. That’s good. No, yeah, anytime we can sort of turn that question, that comment around and turn it into just a little piece of advocacy for what we’re doing in our classroom, I think that’s a really good thing. So yeah, seize on that permission, seize on that opportunity, and yeah, we’ll be better off for it, so.

All right. Well, Slu, thank you so much for the conversation today. I appreciate you diving deep into all of this with me. I know you’re passionate about it, and it is great to hear that passion come through, and also just some of the things that you’re doing that I think can translate into classrooms for people. So, thank you for all of that. Appreciate it.

Thank you. I appreciate you.

All right. I appreciated that entire conversation with Slu, and I am so glad she was able to come back on the podcast just after being away for so long. And honestly, just so many takeaways from what she had to say. I love the pizza analogy. I think that’s an incredible way to think about creativity and explain creativity to our students.

I love the creativity quadrants. That also just explains so much, and I don’t know, it gives me a lot to think about, a lot to process, a lot to talk about with students.

And I think more than anything, though, it’s just worthwhile to think about how we are going to be giving students the tools they need to think about creativity, to understand what creativity is, to understand and activate their own creativity, and the ways in which they are creative. And, how do we think about that ourselves? How do we model that for our students with what we talk about, with what we do, with what they’re seeing us say and do? And I think all of those questions are worth reflecting on and worth thinking about as we move forward here, so a huge thank you to Slu for bringing them up in conversation today.

Art Ed Radio is produced by The Art of Education University with audio engineering from Michael Crocker. Amanda and I will be back next week with the July Mailbag. There’s still time to get questions in, if you have anything pressing or anything you want us to answer, so email me at timothybogatz@theartofeducation.edu if you have a question, or you can leave us a voice message at 515-209-2595, and we’ll see if we can fit you into the Mailbag next week. All right. Thank you for listening, and we’ll talk to you then.