Why We Need to Talk About Mental Health (Ep. 214)

We should talk about mental health on a more consistent basis, but that fact has become more important as we spend more time away from each other. In this episode, Tim welcomes Jen Leban on to share their stories about dealing with mental health and discuss why it needs to be a more regular topic of conversation. Full Episode Transcript Below.

Resources and Links

• View all of AOEU’s resources to help with distance learning
• Follow Jen on Twitter
• Read Jen’s writing on mental health
• Jen is one of the founders of ResetEDU

Transcript

Tim: Welcome to Art Ed Radio, the podcast for art teachers. This show is produced by The Art Of Education University. And I’m your host, Tim Bogatz. We are now over a month into schools being closed across the country. I’m, like I’ve said over the past few weeks, trying to look at this situation as an opportunity for us to share, for us to learn together. So, I’m continuing to try to find guests to talk to who are either doing some really cool things or making the best out of their situation. And most importantly, guests who are willing to share in order to help other teachers.

Now, today’s topic is going to be mental health. Now, mental health is vitally important at a time like this. And I think it’s important for us to actually have a meaningful discussion. If you’re online and you see everybody saying, “Take care of yourself,” you know? But we don’t go beyond that very often. We don’t talk enough about what that actually means. So, that’s what I want to do today.

In a little bit, I want to bring on Jen Leban, an awesome teacher from the Chicago area, to talk a little bit about those topics. And our necessary disclaimer, we are obviously not medical professionals and we’re not offering medical advice, you know? We’re just having a conversation. But before that conversation, I want to begin today just by sharing a little bit about what’s working for me. Now, one part of talking about mental health is reducing the stigma around it. And we need to be able to feel free to share what’s going on with each of us, so I’ll start there.

I personally, I have dealt with depression for a long time, ever since I was a kid. Off and on, I have been to counseling. Off and on, I have been on medication. I’ve done different things at different times to help myself because there has never been one consistent path for me to feel better. But I am incredibly thankful for two things. Number one, my depression never got to a debilitating level. I’ve always still been able to function and do what I needed to do to live my life. And number two, things have gotten better for me as I have become an adult.

Depression still hits me. I still need to fight through it sometimes. But it’s less frequent. And more importantly, in my old age, I know what better works for me in order to combat it. So, right now, like I said, I’m thankful that I’m doing okay. And I want to talk just a little bit about what helps me, what helps my mental health. So, I just made a quick list of things that have been helpful for me over the past month or so. Number one, I’ve tried to stop reading the news.

Now, I shouldn’t say stop, because I still find it very important to stay informed. I still read the news. I still watch the news. However, I try not to endlessly scroll through Twitter. And I try not to spend too much time getting sucked into that social media vortex, because let’s be honest, social media is terrible right now, you know? You’re seeing all these people saying, “I finished studying Portuguese and I did my pushup challenge. And I’m off to my online book club.” And I’m just sitting here at home. And I’m not 100% sure that I’ve fed my kids their breakfast. Like, it’s challenging to say the least.

And one thing we talk about, a quote that I love, ‘comparison is the thief of joy’, you know? When you’re constantly comparing yourself to other people, it does. It makes it tough to be joyful about your situation, makes it tough to appreciate what’s going on. So, the less time you can spend on social media, the less time you can spend playing that comparison game, the better you’re going to feel.

Number two, it’s important, I think, to take care of your body. People who know me, know that I love to run. Running is what does it for me, it’s what makes me feel better. But for other people, it might be breathing or stretching or meditation. Anything like that, whatever you can find that works for you that you enjoy that helps you take care of your body, that’s worth it.

And number three, along those same lines, trying to eat healthy. It’s not easy. It definitely is not. But when I can, I’m trying to cook good meals. And I’m trying to teach my kids to cook good meals. Like, shopping’s tough. You can’t get out that often to go buy fresh food. So, a lot of times, you’re stuck with what’s in your pantry. But when you can, try to make something that’s a little bit better. And along those lines, that’s number four for me, celebrate those small victories. Like, if I can talk myself out of a frozen pizza and do a protein shake instead, that’s something worth celebrating, you know? If I take the dog for a walk instead of staying on the couch, that’s a small victory, we celebrate that. If I do yoga for a little bit instead of streaming one more show or one more episode, then that’s something small.

Like, I appreciate those little victories. So, we can’t always accomplish them, and I don’t feel bad when I don’t. But when you do something that’s a little bit better, that’s worth celebrating. And then, just two last ones, number one, reach out to people. It’s tough being stuck at home. It’s tough not being able to talk to your friends and your family as you normally do. But there are alternative ways. So, don’t hesitate to do that. No one is tired of hearing from you. No one is disappointed that you’re calling, friends, family, whoever. Just make that connection however you can do it with them. And if during that time, you can talk about how you’re feeling, so much the better.

And then, finally number six, just take some time to unwind, whether that’s in the middle of the day, whether that’s at the end of the day before bed. Do something that can just let you destress, that can let you relax. For me, that’s artmaking, you know? Even 10 or 15 minutes in my sketchbook calms me down, makes me feel better before bed. Maybe that’s for you talking to your dog or petting your dog or watching stupid stuff on YouTube that makes you laugh or reading a trashy novel, just whatever it may be that you can enjoy and not worry about anything else for 10 or 15 minutes, or even longer. Like, those are all things that can help you feel a little bit better. So, those are the things when I say take care of yourself. Figure those things out. That’s what’s working for me. That’s what’s helping me take care of myself. So, I would encourage you to be thoughtful about that. Spend some time thinking about what it means to take care of yourself as well.

So, again, those are the things that help keep me on track, they help me feel better on a day to day basis. And like I said, that is what I’m talking about when I say self-care or taking care of yourself. Now, all of that being said, I want to dive in a little bit deeper with Jen Leban so we can talk more about mental health. So, let me bring her on and we’ll go ahead and start the interview.

All right, Jen Leban is joining me now. Jen, how are you today?

Jen: I am doing okay. I’m maintaining. How are you?

Tim: I am doing pretty well. And honestly, every day that we are at least maintaining, I think that can be considered a good day right now.

Jen: For sure.

Tim: So, we’ll go with that.

Jen: Yeah.

Tim: Now, at the beginning of the episode here, I kind of shared with everybody my own journey with mental health. And I think it’s important for people to know just what other people are dealing with. There are people out there dealing with the same things they are. And it’s important for people to know they’re not alone. So, with that in mind, can you just share some of your own story with us?

Jen: Absolutely. Are you familiar with the metaphor of … I guess, yeah, metaphor, the marigolds and the walnut trees? It’s like a teaching or an educational metaphor. Have you heard that before?

Tim: I have not. No, I feel bad that I don’t know this. I’m not familiar.

Jen: No, no, don’t feel bad. I first heard about it on Jen Gonzalez Cult of Pedagogy Podcast. And the basic gist of it is that in gardening and planting, marigolds are considered good flowers because they help with the growth and assist other plants around it. So, gardeners will use marigolds to like … They’re kind of reciprocal and they help each other. But those walnut trees, I guess, they suck so much energy out of the ground that they kill the things around it. So, you can see from those two things how that might apply to teaching.

Tim: Yes.

Jen: So, the point of this is, I very much was at a point in my career where I was a gigantic walnut tree. Basically, I was that negative teacher that would go into the staff meeting and somebody would make an announcement. And I would be like, “Let’s see how this turns out,” you know? And just always thinking of the negative. And to be honest, I didn’t know that I was doing it at the time. I thought I was being helpful, you know? That I was like, “Well, I’m playing devil’s advocate. And I’m just pointing out the issues here. And if they would just do it this way, it would be better,” you know? So, it was a lot of that. And I didn’t … The problem is, I didn’t even know it. And I think a lot of people that are like that don’t even know it. So, a lot of basically everything in my journey is about self-awareness.

And what happened to me was, I had interviewed for a new position in the district, actually three separate times. And I was denied three separate times. And this was probably about 10 years ago, between five and 10. And I actually had a coworker who, I don’t even know if he realizes that he did it, but he had a conversation with me. And he pretty much told me, “Jen, you’re being very negative. Or, you have to think about how people are perceiving you.” And I don’t know if he realized he was giving me a hard dose of reality. But I’m one of those people that I internalize everything. And I was listening to him. And even though it wasn’t maybe necessarily what I wanted to hear, it was what I needed to hear.

And it really gave me a lot of … I started self-reflecting and thinking about how … Not how on the inside, well, I think being helpful and I’m pointing out … Why don’t other people see all the stuff that’s wrong? And I started thinking about it from somebody else’s perspective and from their shoes and how it could be perceived as being negative, just in the same way that I’m an introvert. So, when I’m at a party, I don’t reach out to talk to people. And I figure, well, it’s because I’m shy and introverted. But other people could see that as, “Oh, she’s being snobby.” And it’s like, “No, I’m just totally shy.”

So, it’s weird. You have to kind of step outside yourself. So, he had this conversation with me. And I thought about it. And I was like, “Wow, I think he’s right.” So, part of it was this conscious decision to like, okay, bite your tongue when you feel like you’re going to say something negative. And instead, sometimes just go, “Okay, thanks.” And just move on and do the thing that they’re asking us to do. Now, I have to also point out that this was sort of in tandem with … I had had my son almost a year earlier. I think I was probably going through some post-partum stuff as well. And I decided to see a counselor. So, I did start talking to someone at the same time I had this epiphany, which probably it was part of that, looking back now.

And then, not too long after that, I had actually been prescribed anti-anxiety and antidepressant from my other doctor. And it was funny because I was talking to her, this was the psychologist. And she said to me, “Now, Jen, what was the reason why you were so anti-taking any pills before?” And I looked at her and I go, “What?” I go, “I never said I didn’t want to take anything.” And she goes, “Well, you’ve never taken anything your whole life, and I just assumed someone had offered it to you before and you were anti-medicine for depression and stuff.” And I was like, “What? No.” And it was like, at the time, I was like, “I’m over 30 years old and no one has told me I’ve been depressed my whole life?” And it was just this huge, “Oh my god.” So, it was this huge awakening. But it made sense to me because I never felt okay, you know?

I had days that I didn’t want to get out of bed. I was at a point where I was sitting in my car in the parking lot outside the school trying to work up the will to walk through the door, you know? It was really hard. So, honestly, it was kind of like this triple punch of all of these things that, for me personally, helped me turn it around. So, I hate sharing the story in the sense that like, this’ll work for you too, because that’s not necessarily the case. This is just what happened to work for me was this epiphany of self-reflection and actively trying to not do the things I’d been doing, seeing a counselor, starting to take medicine. And it was so weird because when all of those things started happening, all of a sudden at work, things got better too. And all of a sudden, people would say nice things to me or people would come to me for advice or care about my opinion or more smiles, you know?

It was just funny because I started to realize, and this same coworker who had given me that talk actually saw it and started saying, “Wow, you’ve really had a turnaround.” And that was cool to have that outside validation too that these changes I’m making do make a huge difference. So, that’s kind of along meandering tale, but that’s how I got where I am today, because then after that happened was when good things started happening for me. And that’s when I was accepted to the Google Innovator program. And I got to do that, which was amazing professional development experience. That was when just this last year, I was named a finalist for Illinois State Teacher of The Year. So, a lot of these really big major life events started happening as a result of me kind of changing that outlook and that perspective and really kind of just being aware of where I was mentally and how my actions and my behaviors affected other people around me.

Tim: Yeah. Okay, that is really good to hear. So, first of all, thank you for sharing all of that. I think it’s important for people to hear those kinds of stories. And on a related note, I wanted to just ask you about asking for help. And I guess the question is, why do you think people hesitate to ask for help? And why should they not be afraid to do that? Why should they not be afraid to reach out?

Jen: Yeah. Well, the whole reason that I share my story at all and I’m very honest about it and I welcome people to ask me questions, is because I think there is a huge stigma. I think that people are afraid to ask for help because, number one, first you have to admit that there’s something wrong. And I think especially when you’re in a profession like teaching, there’s a little bit of this shame. Like, “My kids don’t want to have the crazy teacher,” you know? And it’s like all of that. And it’s like, that’s really not what it is. And I think that because people don’t talk about it, because people are afraid of it, it’s always that … Fear is like always the thing that brings us down.

So, once we decide to just jump into it, and that’s why I will announce … I will shout it off the rooftops, I take medication and I’m okay, you know? Because the more people that hear it and see it, yeah, maybe there’s going to be a couple of people that are like, “Well, yeah, because she needs it and she’s blah, blah, blah.” Well, let them think that then. You know what? I’m happier in the end. And the more people that I can help by sharing my story, it’s just better overall for everyone. And then it will eventually lessen that fear of getting help and seeking outside help. And no, not everyone needs medicine, you know? I get that. Everybody’s journey is very personal and unique. But that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t explore options and seek outside perspectives and opinions.

Tim: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely 100% agree. And I want to ask you too about reaching out. Like, let’s talk about reaching out to outside resources. Where can people go for help? Or where would you recommend people get started if they feel like they need to reach out to somebody?

Jen: Yeah. This is a really … It’s not a hard question, because for me, I was very fortunate. My school district had … it’s called the employee assistance program. And it’s part of our health insurance and employee wellness kind of program. It’s just it’s very little … Like, it’s not well-known. So, I just remember in the back of my head being like, “Wait, I thought I heard something about being able to …” And I went to my district website and dug around and Blue Cross, Blue Shield, you know? All of that. That was where I found my first counselor. And to be honest, I stumbled into the most amazing counselor ever. So, shout out to Kerry. She made house calls. She would come to your house.

But I think her niche market was actually stay at home moms. But she would come to me after school in the evening. And this was when Iggy was not even a year old yet. So, it was just like a miracle for me to have somebody coming to my house once a week for an hour. And she could just listen to me complain for an hour. I was like, “This is the best thing ever.” So, that was … Yeah, I was very fortunate to find her. But I also have seen the psychologist through my doctor, you know? My … What would you call it? Your medical group or whatever. So, you could always just go to your regular doctor, your general practitioner and say, “Hey, I need somebody to talk to.” And they could help connect you.

But the other part of this is that the more we do talk about this and I say, “I had this great counselor, I can share her …” You know? The more we talk as a network and we have people we know and people we trust, you can ask your friend who you know talks to someone and say, “Hey, who do you have? Who do you like?” Because finding a good counselor is very tricky and I have had one of my psychologists, she was a lovely lady. She was great. But I just didn’t feel like a connection. And I did ask to see the other doctor instead who I really liked. So, I think that people should not be afraid to switch things up if it just doesn’t feel … There’s not the chemistry, you know?

Tim: Right, right. But yeah, you’re right. You need to stand up for yourself in a lot of different ways here. And I know that can be hard for people. But, it’s something that you need to do.

Jen: Yeah.

Tim: Now, another thing that I wanted to talk about is just kind of the idea that this is not something that gets fixed right away. Like, you don’t just go on medicine and then you’ve cured it all or you have a few appointments with somebody and then you’re done.

Jen: Absolutely. Yeah.

Tim: And there are all of these things that can cause things to get a little bit worse. And I think it’s important to kind of recognize those triggers or those things that can negatively affect your mental health. So, my question for you, I guess, is how do you make yourself aware of those things that affect your mental health? And what kind of strategies do you have to deal with that? How can people help themselves deal with some of those triggers?

Jen: Yeah. I think it’s hard at first because you don’t know the trigger until you’re in the middle of it. And then you’re like, “Oh dang.” And I think … And then it’s hard to pull yourself out of it. For me, and again because everything’s very personal, I think a lot of it was the people that I was surrounding myself with and people I was around. I have a very strange family situation that’s not worth going into. But I learned that I have family members that I need to just kind of keep my distance from, that I was letting them affect me in a very bad way. The other thing was like, people I work with. If at your work, you go to the teacher’s lounge, and the teacher’s lounge is just a negative [complainapolusa 00:21:57], then don’t go there. Or if your teacher wife or your teacher husband or your teacher partner comes to your room and just complains, that for me is a huge trigger. Like, when other people are negative around me, I have to escape the room.

I will try to combat it by kind of being like, “Yeah, that’s true. But what could we do to fix this? Or what could we do …” Like, I’ll try to flip it around and I point it out. But there are some people who haven’t had their moment yet, they haven’t had their epiphany. So, you can’t change other people. You can only change yourself. So, I do know that being in a negative environment is not good for me. So, I did have to make some hard decisions, like who I eat lunch with and who I talk to more than other people. And that can be hard, you know? Because especially if you’ve been a negative person for a long time, probably your close teacher friends are also kind of like you. So, you have to sort of … Yeah, it’s like, I can’t really be friends anymore until you … You don’t have to actually say that. You just-

Tim: But you need to make yourself aware of that, you know?

Jen: Yeah. You need to make yourself aware of that.

Tim: And just do it.

Jen: Yeah, and then actually the year that I did it, we also had a schedule change too, so that kind of took care of it for me, that the times I had free were no longer free at the same time, you know? So, there were a lot of things that kind of fell into place. But you can kind of work with those things. Yeah.

Tim: Yeah, for sure, for sure. And then, everybody talks about self-care, taking care of yourself, the things that you do that help. And I gave a long list at the beginning of the episode of what works for me, but can you share some ideas of things that maybe you do for self-care or things that you know work for a lot of people?

Jen: Well, I know the things I hear a lot of people say are things like, draw up a warm bath or do your nails, or this, you know? I feel like, for me, self care isn’t anything that requires a lot of preparation or lead up time. Unfortunately, I have some self care things that are not so great, such as eating things that are not good for me. Yeah, I’m very much like a food and coping skill is like eating. So, that’s a whole separate episode we could talk about. But yeah.

One of the things that I did learn through kind of by accident, I guess maybe not too if you think about it, because this is the Art of Ed podcast, but making art and drawing in particular, anything that gets me into that zone. And I know all art people know about the zone when you’re working. That takes me away from everything. And honestly, I lost that for a while. I actually stopped teaching art for a while and I was teaching tech. And now this is the first year that I’m back teaching art and tech. So, I do both things now. And getting back into that art reminded me of the stuff that I hadn’t been doing for a while and how helpful it was.

And this happened to take the form of, I illustrated my first children’s book. And I had to draw for the author. And I’m doing these drawings, and I realized, this doesn’t feel like a job I’m doing. I’m like, “I look forward to doing this.” I’m like, “Hey, guys. Sorry, I have to go work for three hours in the back and draw.” And it was like, I almost felt guilty because it didn’t feel like work and it was so much fun. Like, I loved doing it. And it reminded me, “Jen, you love drawing. You need to do this more because this is the thing that calms you down and kind of takes you out of the stressful things in life.”

Tim: Yeah. That’s a really … that’s good. I like that. So, that’s really cool. I’m glad that you’ve found that and that works for you. And then, I guess before we give our super amazing recommendations for everybody, anything else that you want to share? Any advice? Just words of advice for everybody?

Jen: Yeah, I have a little tip that I actually learned from an online article when I was in a dark place and I was searching like, when you’re trapped in your job and you can’t leave. It was, I swear. I Google the most random things. But one of the things that I learned from that, and then in conjunction with my counselor actually is the idea of coming up with a statement of affirmation that you use for yourself every day. And what happened with my daily affirmation was that I used one of those little word art graphic design apps for your phone. And I made it my home screen on my phone so that every time I picked up my phone and I looked at it, I would read my daily affirmation.

Tim: Wow.

Jen: I know. And my daily affirmation, I’m going to try to remember it, and this might be off a little bit. But it was like, this is not an ideal situation, but I am not above this, and I am going to rock it. So, that was my daily affirmation, that yeah-

Tim: I feel like that fits your personality really well, to be honest.

Jen: It does. Well, yeah. The end part was a little bit personalized. But there was a lot of, you know when you’re teaching and they ask you to do dumb stuff, like supervise the buses or do … And you’re like, “This is above my pay grade.”

Tim: Yes, yes.

Jen: But you know, sometimes you just suck it up and you just do it. You’re like, “I’m not above this. I’m going to be the best damn bus supervisor there is.”

Tim: That’s a good thing. Yeah, that’s really … Yeah, I like it.

Jen: Thank you.

Tim: Cool. All right. So, to wrap things up, since we’re all at home right now with lots of time to kill, we’ve been having all of our guests give some recommendations. So, we need something to read, something to watch, and something to listen to. So, number … Would you like to go first? Or would you like me to go first with my recommendations?

Jen: I’ve got mine. I’ve got them written down. I am ready to roll.

Tim: You are so prepared. I appreciate it. Okay, let’s go with something to read. What would you recommend that everybody reads?

Jen: All right. Well, something to read is, I’m really into audiobooks, mostly because I would listen to them while I was driving in my car. But now, I don’t know. When you’re cleaning the house and washing dishes. So, my latest audiobook that I love is the … I guess it’s a biography by Adam Savage of Mythbusters. And it was the title that originally hooked me, but the book is amazing. And it’s called Every Tool’s A Hammer, if You Try Hard Enough. So, it was great because he really goes into his artistic process. So, it was very art nerdy, so that was totally me. And he would talk about his processes and his designs and how he loves to organize his materials, which is all of that minutia stuff that I’m so into. And yeah, it was fascinating and he did the read for it. So, the audiobook is read by him. So, it’s pretty, pretty incredible.

Tim: That’s really cool. That sounds like it’d be great to listen to.

Jen: Yeah.

Tim: My book recommendation is called The Vacationers by Emma Straub. I’m right in the middle of it right now. And it seems weird to recommend it. It’s just about this family going on vacation, which does not sound exciting at all.

Jen: It does now.

Tim: That’s true. That’s very true. The mood of the book is just spectacular. It’s this mix of … How do I … Like, you’re optimistic for them throughout. But there’s also this sense of trepidation because there are so many secrets and the characters are just so complex and so interesting but yet really knowable at the same time. And so, anyway, I’m just appreciating the writing all the way through. I don’t even know how it’s going to end. I’m not there yet. But I’m in the middle of it and just loving every page. So, that’s been pretty fantastic.

Jen: Sounds good.

Tim: It is. Like, I didn’t know if I was going to like it, but I have loved the writing. So, what about something to watch?

Jen: Something to watch, I have a couple things. First of all, on Wednesday nights, we do a hangout with my brother and sister-in-law because we used to go to their house. So, now we do a video hangout, so we can commentary as we watch it, Lego Masters. We freaking love that show.

Tim: Yes. I love it.

Jen: Yeah. But my all time number one favorite TV show, ride or die, RuPaul’s Drag Race. I cannot get enough. I’ve been rewatching the old season when I’m at home, it’s so good.

Tim: Yeah. I had recommended Lego Masters just a couple weeks ago. So, I mean, that show is just spectacular. My recommendation for TV show is a different creation competition show. Have you watched Nailed It on Netflix?

Jen: Yes.

Tim: It is the greatest show. For those of you that haven’t seen it, it’s just three people failing miserably at baking while this incredible host makes fun of them the whole time. And it’s so amazing. But anyway, season four just came out a week and a half ago. And so, my kids love that show, so we get together and watch so much of it. It’s fantastic.

Jen: Have you finished the season yet?

Tim: I have not. I don’t watch that much TV.

Jen: Okay.

Tim: Is there something coming that I need to know about?

Jen: There’s an episode where she rolls on the floor and we had to rewind it like three times because it was so great. It was the funniest thing ever. Like, into the next room, she’s rolled away, like log rolled away. And I am going to do that when I get back to work and the kids … I’m just so exasperated, I’m going to get down on the floor and I’m going to log roll out of the room. Like, the visual, so great.

Tim: I love it. Yes.

Jen: Yes.

Tim: Okay. Okay, I have something to look forward to there. That is awesome.

Jen: There you go.

Tim: All right. And then, finally, let’s close it out with a recommendation of something to listen to.

Jen: Okay. So, again, couple things. Number one music-wise, I am a very big heavy metal fan. Surprise. So, I’ve just been hearing a lot of Spotify radio stations and having them play stuff for me, so that’s kind of been like my musical soundtrack in the background. But podcasts. I really like this podcast called Disgraceland. And it’s a play on Elvis’ Graceland. And there are these stories from music of just scandals and jail time and murder and all of this stuff, but specific to the music industry. And it’s just pretty good. And it’s very dramatic and he puts sound effects behind it, the guy that tells the story. So yeah.

Tim: Okay. I wrote that down. I’m totally in. I’m going to check that out.

Jen: Yeah.

Tim: Okay, my listening recommendation mixes music and a podcast. So, this is a single episode of a podcast. And the podcast is called Reply All. And it’s usually this great storytelling thing about tech and just different online things that are happening. But this particular episode, it’s called The Case Of The Missing Hit. It came out like a month ago. I want to say it’s like episode 158 or something around there. But basically, it’s this guy who remembers this old pop song from when he was a kid. And he can remember the lyrics and the melody, but the song has just disappeared. Like, he cannot find it anywhere. It is nowhere on the internet. And so, it’s just a great episode of how they sort of try and track down what has happened to this song. They try and recreate it. They try and find it. I don’t want to spoil anything, but it’s definitely worth a listen. So I’m going to-

Jen: Is it a true story? Or is it made up?

Tim: 100% true story, it’s fantastic.

Jen: Oh my gosh, yeah, I need to go listen.

Tim: After you listen to it, you need to read up on everything that’s happened since as well. Like, it’s really, really good.

Jen: Oh my gosh, I absolutely go down those rabbit holes. So yeah, I’m into it.

Tim: It’s like honestly one of the best podcast episodes I’ve listened to in a really long time.

Jen: I wrote it down.

Tim: It’s a good one. All right, cool. All right. Well, I think that is going to do it for us. So, Jen, thank you so much for the recommendations, obviously. But more importantly, just sharing your story, sharing your advice, and doing everything that you’re doing to help people with this. So, thank you.

Jen: Thank you for having me. This was fun.

Tim: Thank you so much to Jen for coming on. As I said, I think it’s important for us to talk about all of these issues. I think it’s important for us to share our stories. And I very much appreciate Jen doing that. Now, before we go, I just want to remind you that we have our weekly webinar happening on Thursday night, 7:00 central. You can check out all the information on the AOEU website, or you will see it live Thursday night on the AOEU Facebook page as well. So, stay safe, take care of yourself, and take care of everyone around you.

Art Ed Radio is produced by The Art Of Education University, with audio engineering from Michael Crocker. Thank you for listening, and we will talk to you again next week.