Looking Ahead to the Fall (Ep. 369)

Welcome to Art Ed Radio, the podcast for art teachers. This show is produced by the Art of Education University, and I’m your host, Tim Bogatz.

Now, as we get to the last weeks of the school year, we have the end of the year coming into focus, and for some reason, we just naturally begin to look toward next year. Should we be celebrating what happened this year? Should we be appreciating what has happened? Should we be focusing on these last few weeks with our students? Yeah, probably. But like I said, it’s natural for us to look ahead. I think as we do that, as we look forward, we come to an inflection point where we begin to wonder about what next year looks like, about what our situation will be, about what awaits us in the next school year. I’m curious about everything that’s going on. I’ve been talking to a lot of teachers just across the country about what they’re thinking about, what they’re struggling with, what they’re going to need help with during the next school year.

Janet Taylor is going to join me in a minute to talk about these things, but I would love to hear from you too after you listen to this episode. Please let me know if you think we’re on the right track with our discussion. We’re not trying to solve any problems today. Okay, let me be clear about that. We’re not in problem solving mode. Eventually, we may try and get there, but in today’s episode, we’re trying to identify the issues, we’re trying to take the temperature of what’s going on right now, gauge where teachers are at the moment. I want to hear where you are as well, so email me. My email address is TimothyBogatz, all one word, @theartofeducation.edu. Let me know your thoughts. As we go through this episode, I would love for you to reflect on your school year and think about what have you struggled with this year? What do you need support with? What are you thinking about going into next year? Do your thoughts match up with what I’ve been hearing from other teachers, which we’ll talk about here soon?

As you’re listening to Janet and I go through these things, are you shaking your head yes or are there things that we’re missing? Are there other pieces that we have not identified? Is there part of the conversation where we’re off track? Please let me know. I would love for you to reach out. But let’s go ahead and get all of that discussion started and let me bring on Janet now. Janet Taylor, welcome back to the show. How are you?

Hey, Tim. I’m good. How are you doing?

I am good. I enjoy talking about all of these topics, and even though we’re not in problem solving mode per se, I think it’s good to explore and to reflect and to think about things. I’m glad that you’re here to do that with me because you always give me things to think about that I don’t on my own. So anyway, thanks for coming. I guess to start it out with, can you just tell us a little bit about your school year, some of the issues that you’ve been facing yourself and what you’ve heard from colleagues, people you’ve collaborated with or worked with? I know you worked with people all over the country, but can you just tell us a little bit about what you’re seeing and what you’re hearing?

Yeah. Well, first of all, I’m excited to be here to talk about these things too, because there are no solutions, I don’t think, for a lot of this stuff, but I really like to think about it. It’s a really interesting challenge to think about the year and the trends and see what’s going on and really actually try to figure out solutions that’ll actually work, as opposed to trying to slap band-aids on things or putting out fires. So this has been a really interesting year for me in particular, because as I think our listeners know, or probably know by now, this is a new school that I’m at this year.

So it’s a weird place to be because… Not my school. I love my school and my team. That’s not a weird place to be. But it’s weird to be this veteran teacher and then move into a new space, new kids, new team, everything. It’s a very vulnerable place. And what’s interesting is I think this is a bigger topic in general about that because of the pandemic. I think a lot of teachers shifted roles, went to different districts, elementary to high school or vice versa or whatever, because there were a lot of openings that-

Yeah. It was a good impetus for change. And if you’re thinking about trying something new, you had the opportunity to do so. Yeah, I think that is the case for a lot of people.

Yeah, so I mean, I’m glad you say that because I felt like that around me, but I wasn’t sure if that was the bigger thing. But it’s a weird place because when you’re a veteran teacher and you’re trying to figure out what’s happening after the pandemic, which is weird enough, you’re in a new school, new space, and it’s like trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together. You’re not sure, is it my students? This new population? Is it me? Am I not… Where do I fit in the grand scheme of their curriculum or whatever it is? Look at all these things and I think it’s taken me until, I don’t know, maybe a month ago where I started to realize, no, no, no. Okay, I know where I am now. I’m comfortable. I can see what’s happening. There are glaring big picture things that are going on that I feel like when I talk to people all over the US, have very specific different things, but large, big picture, same issues. What do you think?

Yeah, there are definitely some commonalities. I’ve spent the last week or two just thinking about this episode, talking to a lot of people just all over about the issues that they’ve been facing, what they think they’re going to be facing heading into next year, and just talking about that. And then, like you said, they’re the same themes that they keep popping up. So I mean, I guess I’d love to dive into those if you’re cool with them.

Yeah. What’s one that you found or have heard?

I think maybe not the biggest one, but one that I think a lot of people are talking about, is just the difficulty of enforcing any rules or any discipline. There’s just the situation where there’s just not a lot of support from administrators or deans or assistant principals. Whoever’s doing your discipline, they’re not really backing up. A lot of teachers are feeling like they’re flying solo when it comes to discipline, and they’re just not getting the support from admins. I just hear a lot about admins being so scared of parents right now. They’re scared to confront parents, they’re scared to upset parents and because of that, it’s really tough to enforce any rules. There’s this lack of accountability for any type of behavior and just a lack of consequences because you have very few people backing you up when you try and enforce things. So is that something that you’ve seen yourself or something that you’ve heard about, just the difficulty in enforcing anything?

Oh, a hundred percent, maybe a thousand percent on that. It’s been a really interesting… You said flying solo. That’s a really interesting thought, because that is exactly how I’ve recently been thinking about this. It’s interesting, the accountability piece. As a teacher, we get so frustrated by administrative initiatives that are top down approach, and you’re like, “But I’m the teacher in the classroom.” I know what’s happening.

I need my autonomy. Let me do things how I want to do things.

Right. And for once, it feels like it should be a tap down approach when it comes to school-wide expectations. Maybe it just needs to be reigned in like that because we haven’t had that and we need to get back into what that looks like. I think… So a good example of this is, let’s say, so at my school, it’s up to the teacher how they handle phone policy. So there’s no phone policy for any phones, as we all know.

Yes.

The pain of our existence right now. For so many reasons, I could talk a whole episode just on cell phone usage. But anyway, so I feel like if there’s nothing consistent across the board from the school or district about phone usage, that gives so much leeway. And then every teacher is fighting the battle, that is the same battle of put your phone away. And so if you’re asking your kids to put your phone away all the time, what is the accountability or the consequences that come from how many times you have to tell them that? So if there’s no policy in place or no structure at all, then it is leaving us to fend for ourselves when it comes to that stuff. That’s when things get trickier with parents.

Well, yeah. And then, you call parents and say, “Hey, your kid is having a problem with keeping their phone on constantly.” And they’re like, “well, just take it away from them.” Like, “No, I don’t want to do that, I don’t want that confrontation, and I don’t want to be responsible for that property. That’s not mine. What am I going to do with it? How am I…” Whatever, it brings up a whole nother set of issues.

I really think we should do a podcast on cell phones in the classroom.

Okay.

That could be 50 minutes long.

Well, you need to have solutions for it though.

Okay. Okay. We’ll talk.

I’m lacking in those solutions right now, I’ll just tell you that.

But yeah, I mean, I think that’s the piece is that as a teacher, you feel like, well, if there’s no policies in place, there’s no accountability, kids don’t have consequences. And I don’t mean this… That’s something I’ve been thinking a lot about. I think the beginning of the year, people kept saying, “Consequences. My students need consequences.” I think I was turned off from that, to be honest with you, because it felt punitive. There needs to be suspensions and there needs to be detentions and blah, blah, blah. It felt very punitive, but now it’s like, no, no, no, no. Okay, so this thing happened at my school not that long ago, and I was thinking about this a lot too.

School is the time where you have all these adults around you to support you. It’s a safety net to make mistakes, big and small. We’re there to wrap around you so that when you get to be an adult, you don’t make those mistakes when it really matters and you have no safety net. So I’m really thinking about this, in that way. Consequences, natural consequences, students need those. That’s what tells them, “Oops, I made a mistake and I need to do better.” But when there’s none of that happening from administration, teachers are on their own, it’s like you just feel helpless, right?

Yes, yes.

Yeah. Okay, no solutions to that. That was-

But again, like I said in the introduction here, we’re not solving any problems today.

No.

We’re just talking about what’s out there, trying to take the temperature of what people are seeing, get a gauge on what people are seeing and what we need to prepare for going into next year. Okay, another commonality, another big theme that I’ve heard from a lot of people is that they are just overworked. This is not necessarily the same as being burnt out. It can definitely lead to burnout, but people just feel like they don’t have time to breathe. There’s so many extra things being asked of us. There seem to be not enough substitute teachers anywhere in the country. As a result, a lot of people are being asked to cover classes, I guess, getting paid to cover classes, which is fine, but at the same time, you’re then losing out on your planning period.

You’re then losing out on your time to prep. They’re losing on your time to decompress. All of those things that you need to do and every day is just a constant flow of something needs to be done from when you walk into the building until when you walk out. People just are exhausted because of that. That’s not sustainable. That’s not something you can do day after day after day. So I guess a two-part question, are you feeling that yourself? And then secondly, have you heard the same from people?

So, yes and no. I feel like I sometimes do that to myself almost, the go, go, go.

Fair.

You know what I mean? I’ll say this. I think I was very intentional coming back to a new school and to post-pandemic world. I was trying to be very intentional of not overloading and going back to the craziness of the pre-pandemic.

Right.

I like to call it the rat race. I feel like I was just doing that, like a hamster wheel. The slowdown gave me a chance to be mindful of that, and I feel like it’s starting to ramp right back up again. So it is definitely something on my mind. Again, don’t even have any personal solutions to that, but yes. And then I think, here’s the thing is that I think we already were go, go, go. Already, students are at us out all the time. I think how we are teaching is different now. Students are needing a lot more independent or individualized learning. They’re looking for that. They’re expecting that maybe. And so what we’re giving is even more so during the teaching time. Then you have to sub for classes all the time for other teachers because there’s no subs. It’s like, yeah, that just compounds the issue that already was already an issue. Right? Yeah, definitely.

Okay, so I guess your answer there, and something you said when we were talking before, both lead into this third thing that I’ve heard from people is just, it seems like what engages kids has completely changed. So I guess the biggest problem I’m hearing is student apathy. They’re not excited about things. They’re not engaged with what usually works, I guess. So teachers are on the search, trying to learn what engages kids, what gets them excited about making, what gets them excited about creating, about being in art class. I think it is a little bit different right now because the modes of learning have changed and we’re trying to navigate this new world and trying to figure out what works for kids. I guess just anecdotally, I see a lot about kids doing better with hands-on activities when they’re making, when they’re creating, which I’m always a fan of, but I think that that seems to have even more appeal at this point.

That seems to be the thing then that kids are looking for. But right now, it’s just tough for a lot of teachers to figure that out. A lot of strategies that used to get kids excited, get them engaged, aren’t working as well anymore, and we’re just looking for new ways to get them into what we’re doing. So are you finding that you need to navigate things differently? Are you seeing things a little bit different? Are your students as apathetic as ever? I don’t know if any of those things really you want to speak to, but yeah, I’d love to hear your thoughts on any or all of those ideas.

Yeah, so I mean, I’m seeing, I don’t know about apathy. Yes, apathy, but it’s not just apathy. There’s multiple things going on depending on my classroom situation. Now, I will put this out there. I am so curious. I cannot wait to hear from our elementary teachers because I’m not in elementary. I’m not even observing my student teachers in elementary this past semester, so I’m really curious. What I’ve seen online seems like the kids don’t have… It’s not apathy at that level. Right?

Right.

They have other issues, so I’m really curious to see what that is. But at the high school, maybe even middle school level, I’m seeing apathy. I’m also seeing a lot of attention and focus issues. Those two things are really challenging because they’re different ends of the spectrum, right?

Yes.

So you’re dealing with that. Now, the other interesting thing about apathy, and I’ll mention what I see in a minute, but what I am noticing is that you still have the kids who are always engaged and doing stuff. They’re still there. It’s just that the middle ground is getting bigger and going further down. You know what I mean?

Okay, yeah.

Yeah, so your high achievers or the kids who are authentically interested in learning and engaging and creating and doing things because that’s what they like to do. That hasn’t changed. I don’t see that-

Right, they’re still doing that. Yes.

Yes, they are. They are, which is great. That’s a good sign, that it’s there. So on one side of that, with the apathy, what I’m seeing is just very different than what I saw apathy was before the pandemic. I think this is what’s been really challenging for us to figure out how to engage these kids, because very beginning of the school year, I’m engagement, engagement, engagement. That’s the issue. And then I realize, well, that’s not working either and that was very strange for me because I’m used to creating really engaging curriculum, a lot of ways for kids to… What do you want to say? Entry points in curriculum so that all kids can succeed. I was like, well, I’ve done this work for how long and why is this not working? I think it goes back to the original, then I started second guessing, is this my kids? Is it me? What’s going on? But it is a bigger issue. So the apathy is interesting. Well, it almost feels like they pick and choose what they’re interested in, and it doesn’t matter about my hook, you know what I mean?

Oh, yeah.

I don’t know. It’s a very interesting, weird dynamic, and I can’t really put my finger on it. I’m not articulating it very well, but it feels like that to me. I just never know what they’re going to really sink their teeth into, but really checked out. Some kids just checked out. Then I’ve got some kids who are really there to check the boxes and get the A. I think part of that is they expect the A. I think we had that problem as art teachers prior, right?

Yeah.

But now because they had so many grades wiped and minimal work was expected in order to move along, I think they really expect that now, so that’s been really interesting to observe.

So I was talking to a high school teacher from Michigan, and she told me that just along these same lines of thinking, kids are still interested in the work, but not as interested in the grade. They’re happy to do the work, if it’s engaging to them, if it’s interesting to them, but they really are apathetic when it comes to the grade part of it. They don’t really care about that. Are you seeing the same thing?

So yes, there’s a pocket of that then too. They’re just all over the board and it’s really hard to capture it. But yes, a big chunk where it’s like, “Okay, this is what I’m grading you on. This is the criteria.” And they’re like, “well, that’s okay. I’m fine with a C.” You’re like, “Okay. All right, just so you know, that’s what it is.” You know what I mean? So yeah, that’s really strange too, giving feedback and them just kind of like, “No, I’m fine with this.” I had a student say the other day, I was like, “You guys, we only have a couple more days to work on this. I really need you to focus on this. There’s a lot coming up. I’m really, me personally, getting anxious about finishing this up.” And they’re like, “Don’t you just want us to have fun?” And I was like, I mean, “Yes, and also I want you to do well and be successful and feel proud of your work.” It’s like they don’t care. Yeah. That’s a weird place too, yeah.

For sure. Okay, so that actually leads me to the last thing I wanted to ask you about, because you and I were talking about this, not on the podcast, but you had said something about you’re struggling with the integrity of your curriculum. I mean, you can explain it better than I can, but just the idea that you’re changing up what you do in order to meet kids where they are, instead of following those strategies that have worked for you for literally decades. You’re changing things up and trying to meet kids where their interests are or where they’re ready to learn. So can you talk a little bit more about what that’s been like for you and just what your thinking is there?

Well, yeah, this is a really vulnerable place.

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to put you on the spot.

No, no, no. It’s good. It’s good. It’s good.

I think it is interesting to talk about.

Yes, yes. This is, I mean, I’m just putting this out there so people aren’t like, “What is she thinking?” I just want you all to know that I’m thinking about it. I’m thinking through this, so no judgment, and this is where a lot of my stuff goes. I start thinking and mulling and trying to figure out. So I was feeling this when the student said to me… That’s a great example. When that student said, “Don’t you just want us to have fun?” I’m like, first of all, I think I’m a pretty nice, fun teacher. What part of any of this conversation is me telling you to sit there with your face the wall and do your work? No, go ahead and socialize, but let’s get it done. Right?

Yeah.

So I started thinking, I really want to integrate… I do a lot of fun stuff and integrate little, what do you want to call them? I said this the other day. Art snacks or something?

Yeah, no, just little challenges, little hooks, little things that are fun and exciting, but still teach a little bit.

Okay. Well, I started the year doing that, and that’s when I was like, what’s happening? Why are they not excited about this? This is usually the fun stuff. But now as I’m rounding out, I’m thinking about that too more of, gosh… Okay, also art club teachers, please don’t be angry about this. I was telling this to another teacher, and she’s like, “You’re treading on thin ice there, Janet.” But I was like, “This is not art club. This is a class where you’re supposed to teach.” I take great pride in what I teach and how I teach and why I teach it that way. So I’m thinking about this basically like you said, the integrity of my curriculum versus what is actually going to engage students and keep them-

What’s actually going to work in your classroom?

Yes. And so I really have been thinking about that too. Do I need to let go of stuff before I can reset? I really think it’s going to take us several years, maybe a decade, to get us back to, or in a different direction. We think it’s just going to happen now, right after the pandemic. Oh, we’ll just do the same thing, status quo.

Just flip the switch and be back to normal.

Right. And it doesn’t work like that, right? I do think it’s going to take a long time for us to get where we need them to go or to be back on track in our minds. I’m thinking maybe I need to let go of some of my… Especially for level ones, because maybe it’s more about their experiences and it always has been for me too, but maybe I need to plug in some other things that are more tactile, more engaging in a different way, instead of trying to fit it into a curriculum that is maybe too hard for them. I don’t mean too hard like rigor. I mean stamina too hard. So I’m speaking more specifically to my drawing and painting class, because I do think that it’s taking students a lot more stamina and resilience that I don’t think they have the interest for or capacity for unless, like I said, unless they’re really interested in it, because they want to continue on in painting and drawing or they’re really wanting to learn.

That leads me to another interesting thing is I’ve talked to several high school teachers about curriculum for next year, like FTE, enrollment, that kind of stuff. Ceramics and jewelry metals are through the roof with enrollment and drawing and painting and what else? Photography, digital art are down, not significantly but down.

Interesting.

I thought, well, that makes sense though. Kids really want to be making things with their hands and away from the screens. They don’t want to have to think “that hard” in that way. So I’m not saying that you’re not thinking or working hard in ceramics. It’s just a different way of thinking that I think their brains really need developmentally right now.

Yeah.

I don’t know.

I can see that. I can see that. See, again, like I said at the beginning, you always give me new things to think about. I don’t know. I’m going to go away from this just thinking about do we need to adapt what we’re doing to find our kids where they are and meet them where they are? Yeah, I think that that’s worth reflecting on for everybody. I think it’s probably something that we need to talk about a little bit more.

Can I toss in one more thing?

I was just going to ask you, anything else you want to throw out before we wrap it up? Go ahead.

Well, I wanted to round back a little bit to that attention and focus piece too because we talked more about the apathy piece, but I do think attention and focus, that executive functioning of following steps, not being impulsive to get to the next thing. One of the conversations I had with a colleague was about that, specifically. His connection was, “Well, when we were in the pandemic, you could turn off your screens and do whatever you wanted to do.” Right?

Right.

Nobody was watching. As a teacher, I couldn’t tell you, “Stop, get off your phone,” or “stop playing video games,” or whatever it is because they were not on the screen. So I thought that was an interesting connection that they’re used to, and generalizing. I feel bad because not all students are like that, right?

Right.

But this group specifically of students might have struggled more with impulsivity because they had access to be more impulsive or not be able to follow steps because they didn’t have to follow steps. They didn’t have somebody right there being able to physically help them along the way, right?

Yeah.

And so you have a bunch of, in our case, high schoolers. You got a bunch of middle schoolers who are missing that developmental, those key developmental pieces of that time of their life moving into high school and not having that. So I’m asking students like, “Okay, we’re loading a saw blade for jewelry metals. We’re loading the saw blade. We’re going to take the saw blade in our hands. We’re going to hold it this way. Everybody holds your saw blade up.” They can’t even do that. They’re jumping to the next step. I’m like, “You don’t even know what you’re doing. You’ve never even done this before.”

So it’s the attention and focus is an issue in that class, but engagement is not because they’re super engaged with doing things with their hands. So it’s really, really interesting to see how not everything is across the board all the time, all the ways. I think that is what has been making it very exhausting as a teacher is juggling a million things up in the air, problem solving. You’re already doing that, but now in a different capacity that you might not even have any tools to manage that.

Yeah, and just something you haven’t experienced before, something you don’t have training for. Yeah, I can see where that’s going to be difficult and it’s going to be exhausting, both.

So my hope is… So I’m just going to put this out there. I’m really curious to hear from our listeners, because I did hear somebody also say this next group of middle schoolers, the high school teachers were told that group of middle schoolers are back on track. And so supposed to hopefully swing back and I thought, okay, I’ll believe it when I see it. So middle school teachers, let us know.

Yes, for sure.

Do we have a light at the end of the tunnel? I’m not sure. Yeah.

I like it. Cool. Well, yeah, I’ll put another call out for everybody to give us their thoughts and we’ll see what’s going on in the Art Ed Radio listener world. So Janet, thank you so much for the conversation day. It’s always great to talk to you.

Thanks for having me, as always.

All right. Thank you to Janet for that conversation. As I said in the intro, we’re not trying to solve any problems. We’re, for now, just trying to identify what they are so that we can do a better job reflecting, thinking, strategizing as we move toward next year. I think that all of that is something that’s best accomplished together. So I would love to hear from more voices in the art teacher community. So please email me. Again, my email address is TimothyBogatz@theartof education.edu. Let me know your thoughts. Maybe it’s one thing that stuck with you from this episode or some big picture ideas that you’ve been thinking about as well, or even something that Janet and I missed completely. I would love to continue this discussion, and I would love for you to reach out if you’re so inclined. I hope to hear from you. Art Ed Radio was produced by the Art of Education University with audio engineering from Michael Crocker. Thank you for listening, and we’ll talk to you again next week.